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Workman Keyboard Layout (2010)

workmanlayout.org

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Re: Workman Keyboard Layout (2010)

#51

Post by trisiak »

I too suffered from wrist pain and fatigue in the past. The experimentation with different layouts helped a little but it felt like micro-optimization. What actually resolved the problem was switching to an unorthodox ergonomic keyboard where none of the keys required straining or unnecessary effort (kinesis advantage, using a different one these days). Also, most common problems were caused by placement of special keys (shift, ctrl, backspace, enter) and that's not something colemak, dvorak or their friends seem to be addressing.

I see analogy to guitar playing here. No matter how well you figure out finger positioning for a complex passage, you won't be playing with ease unless your elbow, wrist and spine are also positioned properly.

Re: Workman Keyboard Layout (2010)

#52

Post by stormdennis »

I used hunt and peck for years before learning to touch type. After four years of touch type I'm still fairly crap. If I try to speed up i commonly get the letter order wrong of two successive letters. I'm a lot better than hunt and peck but I'm kind of disappointed. Would it be a major job moving to Dvorak and can you expect big improvements? Also is it better for the keys programmers use that others don't use so much like += etc

Re: Workman Keyboard Layout (2010)

#53

Post by vladvasiliu »

leotaku wrote: post #34
shirro wrote: post #23

A lot of keyboards optimize the wrong things at least as far as programming is concerned. All the optimizations seem to focus on letters but most of the time an editor or shell can auto complete keywords or identifiers. A ridiculous number of symbols seem to be a very long way from the home keys on weak fingers with modifiers required to access them. If I had to write huge amounts of plain prose and had RSI I think I…

My country uses the QWERTZ layout which has dedicated keys for German umlauts. I mostly type in English however, so I've bound "([{" to "öäü". I now type umlauts using "AltGr+oau". It's definitely not a perfect solution, but it has worked well for me so far.

AZERTY (French) here with numbers accessed through shift and brackets through AltGR.

This is a horrendous layout. Bonus points for it being slightly different on Mac and PC.

I have absolutely no idea how people can use this layout for programming without going crazy. I don't program full time, I mostly do sysadmin work, and even if I don't think that typing speed is a limiting factor for how much code I can write, I do find it extremely annoying to type certain characters which are used quite often.

Regarding language I type equally English and French so I absolutely love the Mac OS international layout: QWERTY so everything is where you expect it but with ALT I can get pretty much every French character I want, easily. This could probably work for German, too: ALT U + U = Ü. ALT + S = ß. I'm not sure about other nordic languages, though.

I love this so much that I configured my linux and windows pcs to use the same layout. Some characters take somewhat longer to type (three different key strokes for ù instead of one) but I guess that for someone not writing exclusively french prose the tradeoff is completely worth it.

Re: Workman Keyboard Layout (2010)

#54

Post by akdas »

cryptos wrote: post #48

I appreciate such efforts and consider QWERTY more or less a historical accident. But how do you actually use these layouts? Do you pull the keys from your keyboard and rearrange them physically? But what about notebooks then where this is often not possible? Or do you train you brain to remember the key positions so that it doesn't matter what character is printed on a key? But how do you _learn_ the layout then? Th…

> do you train you brain to remember the key positions so that it doesn't matter what character is printed on a key?

Yes.

> how do you _learn_ the layout then?

Using an image of the new layout, and by doing drills. If you care about touch typing, you're training to type without looking at the keyboard anyway.

This is how I learned to touch type on Dvorak years ago. I had never learned to touch type on QWERTY before, and I still can't. But then again, I typically don't type on other people's computers and when I do, I look at the keys.

Re: Workman Keyboard Layout (2010)

#55

Post by shannongreen »

cryptos wrote: post #48

I appreciate such efforts and consider QWERTY more or less a historical accident. But how do you actually use these layouts? Do you pull the keys from your keyboard and rearrange them physically? But what about notebooks then where this is often not possible? Or do you train you brain to remember the key positions so that it doesn't matter what character is printed on a key? But how do you _learn_ the layout then? Th…

I learnt Dvorak 6 years ago and now type exclusively in Dvorak on QWERTY keyboards (currently a Microsoft Ergonomic). I have never used a keyboard with a Dvorak printed key layout. I think my Dvorak typing speed is still slightly slower than my old QWERTY max, but it feels much more comfortable typing for long periods, and less effortful.

The printed keys don't mean much - to learn to touch type correctly you shouldn't be looking at the keys anyway. I used a few typing games to start and then switched cold turkey for a few activities that didn't require speed (like responding to emails). It was, indeed, very frustrating.

That said, I don't recommend switching for most people, because you will get much worse at QWERTY and when you occasionally need to type it (like on a colleague's keyboard) you will appear incompetent; you will ruin your muscle memory for keyboard shortcuts; and, because standard Dvorak is not great for programming IMO due to the position of the [{ and }] keys. But now I'm in too deep, and I know from experience how hard it is to switch so I don't want to switch back!

Re: Workman Keyboard Layout (2010)

#56

Post by sitzkrieg »

cryptos wrote: post #48

I appreciate such efforts and consider QWERTY more or less a historical accident. But how do you actually use these layouts? Do you pull the keys from your keyboard and rearrange them physically? But what about notebooks then where this is often not possible? Or do you train you brain to remember the key positions so that it doesn't matter what character is printed on a key? But how do you _learn_ the layout then? Th…

for average keyboards you don't rearrange keys, they are shaped a certain way that would make weird ridges. either ignore keycapa or print / buy stickers of other layouts is easiest

Re: Workman Keyboard Layout (2010)

#57

Post by pacaro »

cryptos wrote: post #48

I appreciate such efforts and consider QWERTY more or less a historical accident. But how do you actually use these layouts? Do you pull the keys from your keyboard and rearrange them physically? But what about notebooks then where this is often not possible? Or do you train you brain to remember the key positions so that it doesn't matter what character is printed on a key? But how do you _learn_ the layout then? Th…

I've pulled keycaps - I lost use of my left arm for half a year about 20 years ago, so I switched to one of the single handled layouts that is available out of the box on windows, I switched the key caps on an old IBM PS/2 keyboard (amazing, metal body, mechanical). This has the obvious advantages, and only takes 20 minutes or so, but when I've used other layouts more recently, I've just used blank keycaps, it breaks the habit of looking at the keys

Re: Workman Keyboard Layout (2010)

#59

Post by Okkef »

coconut08 wrote: post #49
Okkef wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not saying it's impossible or that you shouldn't do it. I'm saying it's not the first thing you should improve. If you compare switching to colemak the other improvements I listed, it's by far the most effort. I am practicing colemak which mentally exhausts me a few times a week and I'm only up to 18 wpm. Picking up a split keyboard will take maybe an hour before you are back up to speed and you will gain the ben…

I actually agreee. The conclusion I came to at the end of it was that learning a new keyboard layout was basically a waste of time for most people for a number of reasons. First of all there's no actual science that proves it's ergonomic efficacy and if it does actually accomplish anything it's negligible compared to other things you could do instead. On top of that it makes interfacing with other people's computers…

I totally agree!

Re: Workman Keyboard Layout (2010)

#60

Post by jeromenerf »

cryptos wrote: post #48

I appreciate such efforts and consider QWERTY more or less a historical accident. But how do you actually use these layouts? Do you pull the keys from your keyboard and rearrange them physically? But what about notebooks then where this is often not possible? Or do you train you brain to remember the key positions so that it doesn't matter what character is printed on a key? But how do you _learn_ the layout then? Th…

My 2 cents:

You can actually reshuffle keys on many notebooks keyboards. And / or use stickers on the left over keys. They don’t look great, but I prefer layout over look :)

Using a blank keyboard was a good forcing device to get better at touch typing. I sanded out a spare thinkpad keyboard. Cheap, effective.

You need to practice. It can be an enjoyable activity, like running or working out. Rewiring your habits is actually easier if you enjoy the process. It takes time though.

I have no issue working with other layouts, may it be another person computer (which if rare) or a mobile device, which don’t support Dvorak ootb. Our brains are great.

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