Workman Keyboard Layout (2010) • Hacker News Board

Re: Workman Keyboard Layout (2010)

#41

Post by coconut08 » Thu, Jun 04, 2020, 5:47 AM UTC

Okkef wrote: post #38

Learning a new layout takes months of training. If you want to improve ergonomics, I would take the following steps; 1. Get as split keyboard for better shoulder posture (ultimate hacking keyboard) 2. Get a column staggered board instead of row staggered for better finger movement and more thumb keys (ergodox or iris keyboard) 3. Get rid of the num row and limit movement for fingers to one key in any direction using…

>Learning a new layout takes months of training.

This is completely false. If you go cold turkey and actually work at it you can actually memorize a keyboard layout in a single afternoon, though you will be slow as hell. If you keep at it without switching back you can get up to like 30 wpm in a week. I did it with both colemak and beakl 15.

The problem isn't that it takes months, the problem is that it is incredibly tedious and you have to really want to do it because you will hate your life for the first couple of days.

Re: Workman Keyboard Layout (2010)

#42

Post by nhumrich » Thu, Jun 04, 2020, 5:48 AM UTC

shirro wrote: post #23

A lot of keyboards optimize the wrong things at least as far as programming is concerned. All the optimizations seem to focus on letters but most of the time an editor or shell can auto complete keywords or identifiers. A ridiculous number of symbols seem to be a very long way from the home keys on weak fingers with modifiers required to access them. If I had to write huge amounts of plain prose and had RSI I think I…

I have an ergodox and all the "middle" button are brackets, [],{},(). Its amazing. You can also set shift to type a letter (such as a bracket) on stroke, but be shift on hold.

Re: Workman Keyboard Layout (2010)

#43

Post by asmosoinio » Thu, Jun 04, 2020, 5:51 AM UTC

This article is from (2010)

Re: Workman Keyboard Layout (2010)

#44

Post by SNosTrAnDbLe » Thu, Jun 04, 2020, 5:51 AM UTC

shirro wrote: post #23

A lot of keyboards optimize the wrong things at least as far as programming is concerned. All the optimizations seem to focus on letters but most of the time an editor or shell can auto complete keywords or identifiers. A ridiculous number of symbols seem to be a very long way from the home keys on weak fingers with modifiers required to access them. If I had to write huge amounts of plain prose and had RSI I think I…

Totally agree. I am mostly typing the symbols @#()[]-+= for a great part of my day. Also, why do we need to restrict the keyboard to a specific size or a specific number of rows. Why not have more than 4 rows ?

Re: Workman Keyboard Layout (2010)

#45

Post by Okkef » Thu, Jun 04, 2020, 5:52 AM UTC

coconut08 wrote: post #41

Okkef wrote: post #38

Learning a new layout takes months of training. If you want to improve ergonomics, I would take the following steps; 1. Get as split keyboard for better shoulder posture (ultimate hacking keyboard) 2. Get a column staggered board instead of row staggered for better finger movement and more thumb keys (ergodox or iris keyboard) 3. Get rid of the num row and limit movement for fingers to one key in any direction using…

>Learning a new layout takes months of training. This is completely false. If you go cold turkey and actually work at it you can actually memorize a keyboard layout in a single afternoon, though you will be slow as hell. If you keep at it without switching back you can get up to like 30 wpm in a week. I did it with both colemak and beakl 15. The problem isn't that it takes months, the problem is that it is incredibly…

I'm not saying it's impossible or that you shouldn't do it. I'm saying it's not the first thing you should improve.

If you compare switching to colemak the other improvements I listed, it's by far the most effort. I am practicing colemak which mentally exhausts me a few times a week and I'm only up to 18 wpm. Picking up a split keyboard will take maybe an hour before you are back up to speed and you will gain the benefits instantly.

When you're "back up to 30wpm after a week of training" you're still typing at crippled speeds. It takes a significant amount of effort to learn a new keyboard layout.

Re: Workman Keyboard Layout (2010)

#46

Post by taneq » Thu, Jun 04, 2020, 5:53 AM UTC

smabie wrote: post #17

> Try typing “The” with the T capitalized on Colemak and hopefully you’ll see what I mean. Try typing “The” with the T capitalized on Colemak and hopefully you’ll see what I mean Why is he shifting with his right hand instead of his left? It seems obvious, but maybe isn't: you should shift/ctrl with the opposite hand that is going to type the letter.

This is going back into the dark ages (we were taught on electric typewriters!) but when I did a typing course I was told only ever to use my left pinky for shift and right thumb for space.

Re: Workman Keyboard Layout (2010)

#47

Post by hakanderyal » Thu, Jun 04, 2020, 6:00 AM UTC

shirro wrote: post #23

A lot of keyboards optimize the wrong things at least as far as programming is concerned. All the optimizations seem to focus on letters but most of the time an editor or shell can auto complete keywords or identifiers. A ridiculous number of symbols seem to be a very long way from the home keys on weak fingers with modifiers required to access them. If I had to write huge amounts of plain prose and had RSI I think I…

Check out Programmer's Dvorak[0]. Especially with the help of the editor auto closing parens, it's much more natural for me to write code in.

[0]: https://www.kaufmann.no/roland/dvorak/

Re: Workman Keyboard Layout (2010)

#48

Post by cryptos » Thu, Jun 04, 2020, 6:00 AM UTC

I appreciate such efforts and consider QWERTY more or less a historical accident. But how do you actually use these layouts? Do you pull the keys from your keyboard and rearrange them physically? But what about notebooks then where this is often not possible? Or do you train you brain to remember the key positions so that it doesn't matter what character is printed on a key? But how do you _learn_ the layout then?

The longer I think about it the more I come to the conclusion that you have to hammer the new layout into your head, since there are many situations, like the keyboard of a colleague, where the physical layout wouldn't match. But again: how to learn it efficiently without a lot of frustrating typing errors?

The best would be some kind of official standard and the introduction of a new layout in schools.

Re: Workman Keyboard Layout (2010)

#49

Post by coconut08 » Thu, Jun 04, 2020, 6:04 AM UTC

Okkef wrote: post #45

coconut08 wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Learning a new layout takes months of training. This is completely false. If you go cold turkey and actually work at it you can actually memorize a keyboard layout in a single afternoon, though you will be slow as hell. If you keep at it without switching back you can get up to like 30 wpm in a week. I did it with both colemak and beakl 15. The problem isn't that it takes months, the problem is that it is incredibly…

I'm not saying it's impossible or that you shouldn't do it. I'm saying it's not the first thing you should improve. If you compare switching to colemak the other improvements I listed, it's by far the most effort. I am practicing colemak which mentally exhausts me a few times a week and I'm only up to 18 wpm. Picking up a split keyboard will take maybe an hour before you are back up to speed and you will gain the ben…

I actually agreee. The conclusion I came to at the end of it was that learning a new keyboard layout was basically a waste of time for most people for a number of reasons. First of all there's no actual science that proves it's ergonomic efficacy and if it does actually accomplish anything it's negligible compared to other things you could do instead. On top of that it makes interfacing with other people's computers an absolute nightmare. It also has random bugs and quirks if you use software based implementations where it randomly won't work in vnc or a virtual machine or whatever. I actually did it just because I'm a technical masochist and it was fun, not because of some delusion of actually fixing anything. I wound up switching back to qwerty in the end.

As for picking up a split keyboard being easy, that isn't necessarily the case depending on how messed up your typing is. You may need to relearn how to properly type to use them. That said I would agree that you would get MUCH more ergonomic benefits from switching to a split keyboard than you would from learning a new keyboard layout with a fraction of the work required.

>When you're "back up to 30wpm after a week of training" you're still typing at crippled speeds.

This definitely isn't true. You are actually just under the average typing speed. Also if you are doing stuff like programming or many other things your 70+ wmp typing isn't actually doing anything for you because your are already bottlenecked by thinking and other such things. Typing at 30wpm isn't nearly as bad as you think it is. Also you continue to improve from there.

Re: Workman Keyboard Layout (2010)

#50

Post by jansan » Thu, Jun 04, 2020, 6:04 AM UTC

Only partly related, but if you are an aging programmer like me you should consider using a vertical mouse. They are a total eyesore, but switching from a normal mouse is almost seamless and they can dramatically reduce wrist strain.