Patrick McKenzie (patio11) on Japan Aid: Help for the Well-Prepared • Hacker News Board

Re: Patrick McKenzie (patio11) on Japan Aid: Help for the Well-Prepared

#51

Post by adrianwaj » Thu, Mar 17, 2011, 2:39 AM UTC

grasshoper wrote: post #25

portman wrote: post #16

I have great respect for Patrick, and usually agree with him, but in this case I think his conclusion is far off-mark. Japanese citizens need our help , on a massive scale. The government may not need any assistance, but the families and communities ravaged by the disaster have an unbounded need for aid. I've lived in Uganda and Cambodia, two countries which get a disproportionate share of Western aid. Yet still, eve…

I was going to donate to aid organizations to help supply food and water, but I guess I should send some nuclear engineering textbooks and maybe my old exams from Nuclear Engineering 101. That's obviously the best and only way for the average American to help, what with our expertise on these matters. I've also included this link[1] to the wikipedia article discussing the current situation involving the threatened nu…

Dodge tsunami charity scams http://www.atg.wa.gov/BlogPost.aspx?id=27544

Re: Patrick McKenzie (patio11) on Japan Aid: Help for the Well-Prepared

#52

Post by Locke1689 » Thu, Mar 17, 2011, 2:49 AM UTC

bad_user wrote: post #4

First comment in the article is disturbing: One of my wife's relatives is working with those made homeless in her hometown of Ofunato, Iwate Prefecture, which was destroyed by the tsunami. She and many other workers along the coast would not agree with your assessment. The Western media have made the Fukushima nuclear plant the most salient aspect of this tragedy, not least because of the politics and economics of th…

If the problem is broken infrastructure, how can Americans "actually provide" that? Giving money, etc, will be useful once transportation and communication infrastructure is back online, but isn't Patrick's comment based around the fact that the thing Japan most needs is expertise in rebuilding and maintaining infrastructure? While Japan certainly has world class engineers, isn't it possible that they're a little overworked at the moment and could use US expertise as well?

Re: Patrick McKenzie (patio11) on Japan Aid: Help for the Well-Prepared

#53

Post by Locke1689 » Thu, Mar 17, 2011, 2:51 AM UTC

sovande wrote: post #27

DanielBMarkham wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All is not well, but Patio11 is writing a contrarian article -- an article that goes against conventional wisdom. I am at loss to explain this in a way that does not sound callous. Just be assured that these things are perceived in a cyclic manner by the public. Right now, and for the next few months, the MSM and the mob has decided that it is time to panic, rant and rave. That's fine. It's a terrible disaster, and o…

> Patio11 is writing a contrarian article -- an article that goes against conventional wisdom Yeah patio's polemic is "cool" and all, but when the ship starts to sink after it has hit the iceberg and you still insist that all is well because "this ship cannot sink" then its not so cool anymore. The people affected need help and for them the plans obviously does not work and situated actions are called for. They need,…

Isn't his point that sending food isn't going to help Japan rebuild the roads that are needed to deliver the food any faster?

Re: Patrick McKenzie (patio11) on Japan Aid: Help for the Well-Prepared

#54

Post by adrianwaj » Thu, Mar 17, 2011, 2:53 AM UTC

patio11 wrote: post #43

My consolidated response: 1) Shortages in Fukushima, etc, are not caused by lack of food or money. Japan has plenty of food and money. Japan has a temporary logistics problem with getting food to particular refugee sites, because of a number of issues, most critically that the infrastructure for delivering gas in the east got a severe monkey-wrench thrown into it and it is difficult to truck in enough to do distribut…

"satisfying desire to help is a very different thing from actually helping"

..reminds me of the Israel/Territories human disaster where any help is actually a hindrance because one side basically doesn't accept the other side's existence to begin with. Thus, (to me) the apparent problems are not the real problems.

Natural disaster relief is straightforward: you're helping or you're not. Unlike the Israel/Territories disaster, the end points are agreeable with a fairly clear path apparent: evacuation, medical, life-support, clearance, reconstruction, learning/prevention. Humans can do this, but also trying to win or avert a war at the same time is a lot harder. Any tips?

Re: Patrick McKenzie (patio11) on Japan Aid: Help for the Well-Prepared

#55

Post by donw » Thu, Mar 17, 2011, 3:03 AM UTC

pyre wrote: post #40

donw wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Japan is the third largest economy in the world. Uganda and Cambodia don't even make it into the top hundred. Most of those 'development dollars' never even make their way remotely close to the people in third-world countries; the graft and corruption sees to that. I live in Tokyo, and it's pretty insulting to hear this kind of shit. Japan can certainly use the short-term help, especially from trained rescue workers,…

This is like saying that people in New Orleans didn't need help after Katrina just because I lived nowhere near Louisiana. Don't take your frustration at 'the West' for thinking that people in Tokyo are as hard hit as the areas to the north out on others. Just because life goes on in Tokyo does not mean that there is no crisis to the north. Your entire post comes across to me as high arrogance. If by Shinto-buddhism,…

I never said that the people up north don't need help; I have family and friends up there, and will be spending April and May helping people to rebuild.

What they don't need is a patronizing attitude. These people are tough, and they will overcome.

The reason that supplies aren't getting up to Sendai is not that there aren't any. The transportation network is broken, and fuel is in short supply.

Fukushima's got the double-problem of panic; there are hospitals 30km away from the plant that can't get supplies because the truck drivers are terrified that they'll get exposed to radiation, even though the equivalent dose of half a dental X-ray... if they spend the entire day.

Panic is the real problem here, and the rest of the world acting like the entire country has just been leveled by the fist of God is part of the problem.

I wouldn't be so frustrated if I didn't have to deal with daily phone calls from people back home asking whether or not I've grown a third head.

On the second bit, no. Religion works very differently here.

The temples and shrines play a vastly smaller role than churches do for Western religious groups, even in the countryside. There are no weekly gatherings, and most people don't identify with specific temples or shrines, at least not in any of the countryside I've spent time in.

Religion in Japan is national, not local.

You go to your local shrine for local festivals, and that's pretty much it. If you move, you go to a different one.

You've got a small shrine in your house for talking with your ancestors (called a kami-dana, or god-shelf), and people keep these to varying degrees, no matter where in the country they live.

Otherwise, social gatherings are defined by your school or work, or by whatever other organizations you might belong to. Youth groups, church football leagues, and all the other stuff you have in the US doesn't exist here.

So, no, they're not like agnostic christians. They're like Shinto-Buddhists, which refers not to the biggest sect (Jodo Shinshu), but to the religious blend that is most common in Japan (the Nichiren are also shinto-buddhists, for example).

Re: Patrick McKenzie (patio11) on Japan Aid: Help for the Well-Prepared

#56

Post by donw » Thu, Mar 17, 2011, 3:04 AM UTC

Klonoar wrote: post #45

pyre wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is like saying that people in New Orleans didn't need help after Katrina just because I lived nowhere near Louisiana. Don't take your frustration at 'the West' for thinking that people in Tokyo are as hard hit as the areas to the north out on others. Just because life goes on in Tokyo does not mean that there is no crisis to the north. Your entire post comes across to me as high arrogance. If by Shinto-buddhism,…

I get the feeling that he's moreso responding to the fact that, in this situation, you can't compare the likes of Japan and Cambodia. Hell, swap Japan for the US - doesn't make so much sense now, does it? It is an incredibly off putting thing to find people thinking that Tokyo is on fire and about to keel over because of what's going on up north, and while I agree with him on that front, I still agree with the parent…

Thanks, that's pretty accurate.

Re: Patrick McKenzie (patio11) on Japan Aid: Help for the Well-Prepared

#57

Post by alphaoverlord » Thu, Mar 17, 2011, 3:05 AM UTC

bioh42_2 wrote: post #9

sovande wrote: post #8

I'm starting to get feed up about patio11 and the all's well attitude and "we'll manage, thank you very much". The last head-count is seventeen thousand dead and rising. It is obvious that all is _not_ well and that people in the affected areas need help and fast.

Japan has a population of ~ 300 million and is one of the most advanced and wealthiest nations on Earth. I am sure those affected need help but what makes you think others can provide help better/faster then Japan itself can? Perhaps the US navy has lifting capacity that Japan could use, but what else?

~300 million is the population of the US

We have 2.5x the population but 25x the landmass. That's an order of magnitude difference in population density. Now imagine a natural disaster.

Re: Patrick McKenzie (patio11) on Japan Aid: Help for the Well-Prepared

#58

Post by donw » Thu, Mar 17, 2011, 3:05 AM UTC

Locke1689 wrote: post #52

bad_user wrote: post #4

First comment in the article is disturbing: One of my wife's relatives is working with those made homeless in her hometown of Ofunato, Iwate Prefecture, which was destroyed by the tsunami. She and many other workers along the coast would not agree with your assessment. The Western media have made the Fukushima nuclear plant the most salient aspect of this tragedy, not least because of the politics and economics of th…

If the problem is broken infrastructure, how can Americans "actually provide" that? Giving money, etc, will be useful once transportation and communication infrastructure is back online, but isn't Patrick's comment based around the fact that the thing Japan most needs is expertise in rebuilding and maintaining infrastructure? While Japan certainly has world class engineers, isn't it possible that they're a little ove…

Exactly. Japan needs the Army Corps of Engineers, not a mountain of blankets.

Re: Patrick McKenzie (patio11) on Japan Aid: Help for the Well-Prepared

#59

Post by blrgeek » Thu, Mar 17, 2011, 3:17 AM UTC

patio11 wrote: post #43

My consolidated response: 1) Shortages in Fukushima, etc, are not caused by lack of food or money. Japan has plenty of food and money. Japan has a temporary logistics problem with getting food to particular refugee sites, because of a number of issues, most critically that the infrastructure for delivering gas in the east got a severe monkey-wrench thrown into it and it is difficult to truck in enough to do distribut…

Please post this as a reply on the blog too! This has much more detail & sense than the original blog post.

And even in India, after the Tsunami, the problem was not so much as having aid/materials, as having the transport to get the materials to the right place, and building temporary accommodation fast enough for the displaced people.

Re: Patrick McKenzie (patio11) on Japan Aid: Help for the Well-Prepared

#60

Post by jfager » Thu, Mar 17, 2011, 3:29 AM UTC

patio11 wrote: post #43

My consolidated response: 1) Shortages in Fukushima, etc, are not caused by lack of food or money. Japan has plenty of food and money. Japan has a temporary logistics problem with getting food to particular refugee sites, because of a number of issues, most critically that the infrastructure for delivering gas in the east got a severe monkey-wrench thrown into it and it is difficult to truck in enough to do distribut…

Randomly jumping on a flight into Japan to wander around asking people in English if they need help is obviously stupid. But that's not just stupid for Japan, that's stupid for pretty much everywhere. Pointing out its stupidity isn't useful - people who would do that aren't listening to you anyways - so why conflate that sort of behavior with simple, non-disruptive, non-panic-inducing actions like donating money to the Red Cross? Or why contrast it with requests like "send nuclear expertise and helicopters", which everyone who meaningfully could and would is already doing?

After Katrina, Japan donated $200k to the US Red Cross, made $1m worth of supplies available, and private donations from Japanese companies and individuals went over $13m. The US certainly wasn't short of food or money, so why did they bother?

A $50 donation to the Red Cross will potentially help. Earmark it for their general fund, and if they really don't need it for Japan, they'll spend it somewhere else. This is such a bizarre thing to have to defend.