Japan’s Lost-and-Found System • Hacker News Board

Re: Japan’s Lost-and-Found System

#51

Post by chmod775 » Mon, Feb 17, 2020, 9:44 AM UTC

naniwaduni wrote: post #31

drak0n1c wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Japan has a 99% conviction rate and indefinite uncharged detention happens often. Despite that people treat police amicably, and there is a trusting relationship. That's to me a sign that there is a fundamental cultural difference in Japanese attitude, in the US stats aren't anywhere as close to as severe, yet relations/trust is much worse. Goes to show how much of a productivity and effectiveness loss lack of trust…

There are about two ways to get a 99% conviction rate: run total kangaroo courts that only fail to convict when the defendant credibly threatens big problems if they get convicted, or just don't take cases that aren't open-and-shut to court in the first place. And while the kangaroo court thing is maybe a bit too true to be comfortable with, I'd wager Japan errs heavily on the side of not bringing potentially content…

Japan is a bit of both. Prosecutors are extremely reluctant to bring cases to court if a conviction isn't guaranteed (losing a case is extremely embarrassing), and for this reason judges almost always side with them because they assume a prosecutor wouldn't bring a case against someone who is not definitely guilty.

Basically in Japan they err on the side of letting criminals roam free if it's not an open-and-shut case in front of a judge, but it sucks for the (very few) who are wrongfully convicted, because nobody will believe them. Especially because you'll never get the government to admit they wrongfully convicted someone.

Re: Japan’s Lost-and-Found System

#52

Post by diegoperini » Mon, Feb 17, 2020, 9:53 AM UTC

drak0n1c wrote: post #27

WnZ39p0Dgydaz1 wrote: post #6

As someone who lives in Japan I believe this is not a result of "Japanese people being more honest", but rather: - Availability. There are police stations (kobans) and officers on the street everywhere, just a few steps away from wherever I may find something. Turning in a lost item has no friction. All it takes is a few extra steps. In the U.S. there is huge friction - I would need to go out of my way to go to a pol…

Japan has a 99% conviction rate and indefinite uncharged detention happens often. Despite that people treat police amicably, and there is a trusting relationship. That's to me a sign that there is a fundamental cultural difference in Japanese attitude, in the US stats aren't anywhere as close to as severe, yet relations/trust is much worse. Goes to show how much of a productivity and effectiveness loss lack of trust…

I'm not Japanese, but I've seen this Japanese person explaining the situation informally but thoroughly.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OINAk2xl8Bc

The premise is, yes 99% percent is a measured rate but also has no utility in a discussion if the other parts of the big picture is ignored.

Re: Japan’s Lost-and-Found System

#53

Post by wst_ » Mon, Feb 17, 2020, 9:57 AM UTC

WnZ39p0Dgydaz1 wrote: post #6

As someone who lives in Japan I believe this is not a result of "Japanese people being more honest", but rather: - Availability. There are police stations (kobans) and officers on the street everywhere, just a few steps away from wherever I may find something. Turning in a lost item has no friction. All it takes is a few extra steps. In the U.S. there is huge friction - I would need to go out of my way to go to a pol…

As someone with similar experience, I disagree completely. It lies deeply in Japanese culture and is thaught since early days. Proiximity to the police station has nothing to do with it.

If anything, they will leave things on the street if there is no koban near by. Every single kid knows that, if you see some unattended property, the safest option is to leave it be. If it's a commodity then you can return it and probably should. Everything else you don't touch (and by any circumstances you don't touch bicycles!)

I don't remember the thread, but there was a story here on HN about the guy who tried to take and return the bike to the police station. He was, to his own surprise, questioned hardly about why did he do that and what was he thinking. They wanted to put him in detention, too.

I do agree about police helpers, though. I am not living in Japan anymore and, boy, I am missing that.

Re: Japan’s Lost-and-Found System

#54

Post by mikekchar » Mon, Feb 17, 2020, 10:00 AM UTC

WnZ39p0Dgydaz1 wrote: post #9

CaptainZapp wrote: post #7

What always stumped me is that there are virtually always lockers for umbrellas available (the exception being if they have appliances where you can wrap your umbrella into a plastic wrap before entering. That's mostly found in malls and department stores). Given that the standard plastic issue umbrella is sold in any konbini [7/11 et al]) for 500yen combined with Japanese honesty that always surprised me. Can anybod…

What do you mean by "lockers for umbrellas"? Are you talking about public spaces or restaurants? Maybe I just haven't seen them, but I'm really not sure what you are referring to. An umbrella may be 500 yen, but not getting wet when it's raining is priceless :) So, getting an umbrella stolen while you are in a store has a much higher cost than 500 yen.

It took me a while to figure it out too, but it's those little umbrella holders with locks on them that you can often see in the library or onsen. I've never once locked mine, but I live in the countryside :-) But I don't even lock my front door. I've had drunk neighbours come into my apartment in the middle of the night by accident. It's almost stereotypical. Sometimes I think living in the Japanese countryside is like living in a time machine...

Edit: Funny story. When I first moved to Japan, I lost 33 umbrellas in 3 years. I couldn't figure out where they were going. Then at the morning meeting at work they said, "We have this huge pile of umbrellas in the back room. Can people please claim them?" They were all mine... Apparently in the morning after the staff arrive, they would put them in the back room so that it wasn't a nuisance to visitors. Since I live in Shizuoka where it barely rains, by the time I was ready to go home it was usually sunny and forgot about my umbrella. I never ever realised that it was just getting moved. Of course, by then I was indoctrinated enough in Japanese society that I was way too embarrassed to claim my umbrellas!

Re: Japan’s Lost-and-Found System

#55

Post by wst_ » Mon, Feb 17, 2020, 10:07 AM UTC

tidenly wrote: post #12

thunderbong wrote: post #5

I've never been to Japan, but whenever I read these articles, I am reminded of the Japanese word 'Kaizen' which means to continuously improve your work. The way I understand it is to step outside of yourself while working and to see your output as to how it will be perceived over time and from an outsider's point of view and ask from that person's point of view what could be done better. I might be wrong, but to me,…

This might come off as somewhat pessimistic but I actually think Japan is one of the worst implementers of Kaizen anywhere. Japanese are famously conservative in how they work, with employees largely avoiding taking on any responsibility and spreading out tasks and checks. The end result being no-one really stands out, but also that no-one is ever really singularly "at fault" as every decision and check is daisy-chai…

I wouldn't point any specific companies. It is highly subjective. I know people working in both - Rakuten and Uniqlo - who are happy with their jobs. Those are big companies and, the same as in the West, all is down to luck. If you happen to work with decent people you'll be fine.

Re: Japan’s Lost-and-Found System

#56

Post by wst_ » Mon, Feb 17, 2020, 10:17 AM UTC

CaptainZapp wrote: post #7

What always stumped me is that there are virtually always lockers for umbrellas available (the exception being if they have appliances where you can wrap your umbrella into a plastic wrap before entering. That's mostly found in malls and department stores). Given that the standard plastic issue umbrella is sold in any konbini [7/11 et al]) for 500yen combined with Japanese honesty that always surprised me. Can anybod…

I don't think they are common in Tokyo. I've seen them few times, maybe. In most cases people just put their umrellas in an umbrella stands in front of the stores, restaurants or combini. Since most of them look similar, people get confused about which one is theirs. I've heard that nothing gets stolen in Japan, except for bikes and umbrellas. Not sure about bicycle - still got mine, but indeed I've got my unmbrella misplaced once or twice.

Re: Japan’s Lost-and-Found System

#57

Post by einpoklum » Mon, Feb 17, 2020, 11:32 AM UTC

Where the police is less violent and less biased against underprivileged strata of society, the probability of people thinking of the police as an institution which may help with such issues is higher. In many (most?) countries, an encounter with the police is something that makes you worried you will likely be talked down to, potentially held up, and potentially even locked up for the night, beaten somehow, arrested, have stuff taken away from you, and in some countries perhaps even shot.

Re: Japan’s Lost-and-Found System

#58

Post by einpoklum » Mon, Feb 17, 2020, 11:35 AM UTC

hef19898 wrote: post #48

jbay808 wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The high conviction rate seems to be because cases are dropped unless the prosecution's confidence is very high, rather than letting it go to trial. https://youtu.be/OINAk2xl8Bc

That's a system in which the prosecution doesn't go yo court without enough evidence. Which is a good thing, IMHO. Might also mean that some reasonable cases aren't taken to court for lack of confidence on the prosecution s side. Still, largely preferable to the opposite. The system not pushing everything tends to benefit the powerful. The other system em also tends to hurt the weak. One evil is still better than two…

Not necessarily.

In some world states, the prosecution, having taken a case to court but seeing that it is likely to lose, often drops the case. This typically coincides with the practice of judges of dropping strong hints to one side or the other that they will rule against them, and thus it might be better to drop the case.

Re: Japan’s Lost-and-Found System

#59

Post by epicgiga » Mon, Feb 17, 2020, 6:22 PM UTC

hef19898 wrote: post #49

epicgiga wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Factoring in plea bargaining the US and Japan have roughly the same conviction rate. Factoring in people held in US because they can't make bail, also diminished some of the "held without trial" margin. But this is fundamentally a bigger problem in Japan, as it has now embarrassed the country on the world stage due to the Ghosn case. A state that holds people just becauss it doesn't like them, rather than due to evid…

Sure? I mean evidently Ghosn was a high flight risk. And whether or not his conduct was illegal or not is still not decided. For once a powerful person was close to be held for trial over stuff that was sketchy enough to be prosecuted. In a democracy. And still some people are complaining about it. Compare the Ghosn case to other scandals, like the VW emissions scandal. In the VW case it was only lower ranking manage…

But who won? Even assuming Ghosn committed a crime, they ended up looking like the crooks.

And one man succeeding in shady dealings hurts few. But the state succeeding in boundless detention puts everyone in peril. He may have some power, but there is no more powerful an entity than the state.

There's a basic rule of war: slow slow, fast fast. You slowly and quietly gather your forces and telegraph nothing, and when the moment comes, you unleash it all at once and unrelentingly. That's what they should've done. Not made a move until they had the evidence to put him away.

The fact they couldn't do crap for months on end just broadcasts to the world: "we don't actually have any evidence to convict him on".

Nothing's sacred in this world, not even habeas corpus, because no one can be arsed reading history -- it was never a matter of anyone forgetting it.

Re: Japan’s Lost-and-Found System

#60

Post by Grustaf » Mon, Feb 17, 2020, 9:37 PM UTC

WnZ39p0Dgydaz1 wrote: post #6

As someone who lives in Japan I believe this is not a result of "Japanese people being more honest", but rather: - Availability. There are police stations (kobans) and officers on the street everywhere, just a few steps away from wherever I may find something. Turning in a lost item has no friction. All it takes is a few extra steps. In the U.S. there is huge friction - I would need to go out of my way to go to a pol…

> The general view of police and government as your "friendly helper" as opposed to enemies

And you don't think that people who view the police as "enemies" tend to be less honest...

Come on, this is very far from the only example of the extremely high social capital in Japan compared to the West, especially the US. It's just absurd to pretend that it is mainly due to the number of police boxes.