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The Rise of “Movie-Set Urbanism”

strongtowns.org

51–60 of 209 posts

Re: The Rise of “Movie-Set Urbanism”

#51
post #3

I’m not sure this is totally a rip from Hollywood or a kind of modern Potemkin city. I see this in old districts too. Facade in the front parking in the back. Strip malls are the inverse. With strip malls it looks ugly but you can tell at a glance if there is parking. The older form you don’t know till you drive around the back on a typically one-way street. The modern take is like the Emeryville Bay Street shopping…

I agree that Santana Row is particularly well done... but I think the author is reminiscing for something more like downtown Palo Alto. What he misses is a few things:

a) Palo Alto can hold onto its old town feel because it’s literally the epicenter of Facebook, google, sand hill road and Stanford university. Some random town in Florida isn’t going to have all that.

B) in places like Florida, Phoenix, Las Vegas, Houston, etc, it’s simply not feasible to constrain parking when a good part of the year no one wants to walk a half mile or more to get groceries.

There are other ways for places to be nice and not look like an early 1900s town center... I’d submit Austin as an example: it’s totally car centered but has lots of intriguing and distinct neighborhoods and plenty of variety while also being quite suburban and housing quite a lot of strip mall retail.

The small downtown can also be very restrictive and expensive for lower income families. For example, in New Jersey, and eastern PA there are quite a few quaint little towns. Oh sure their town centers are full of small restaurants and dog grooming, pharmacies and banks, but conspicuously absent are grocery stores. I know of whole towns with 10-40k residents and not one grocery store. It’s worse in places like Chicago where lack of access to quality fresh produce has been linked to higher rates of crime.

These small towns create high rates of NIMBY-ism and while they do retain their turn of the century charm, I would suggest that it’s just as Hollywood as the new urbanism but in different ways.

I think we can all agree strip malls probably weren’t the best invention and new urbanism isn’t perfect but at least developers are trying to do something appealing rather than just put up another crappy building with nail salons and vape shops.

Re: The Rise of “Movie-Set Urbanism”

#52
post #47

Correct it's no vibrant, bustling organic downtown. But it's still a helluva lot better than nothing at all. The suburbs I grew up in? There were a bunch of shitty strip malls, and a single indoor mall with a single food court with zero natural lighting, taken over by teenagers after school because it was literally the only place to congregate besides the parking lot outside the supermarket. There was no local "cente…

I hate to tell you, there is a place like this near where I live (Look up The Greene). I assure you, that place is effectively an outdoor mall. I rarely go there due to traffic in and out, I really dislike walking in it (drivers in there are in a hurry to park or leave, and have little concern for pedestrians, there is no "pedestrian only" space), and if I am going to a mall anyways, I would prefer an indoor mall whe…

Not just effectively an outdoor mall, it's literally just an outdoor mall: The Greene's site describes it as an "open-air, mixed-use shopping center."

Re: The Rise of “Movie-Set Urbanism”

#53
post #12

> Until you deal with the parking problem—which is done by building truly mixed-use places where people can meet their daily needs without hopping in the car—you haven’t created true urbanism. Daily needs means jobs for both you and your spouse, which won’t be in some random subdivision in Florida. It means schools, which don’t appear to be there either. It means the kids’ after school activities, again, missing from…

And even if you do manage to solve all the problems you listed in a single walkable area your problems are only just beginning.

* You have to have commercial and residential delivery infrastructure which means roads that reach individual businesses and enough space to park them, and unload. This doesn't immediately mean vehicle sprawl but if the roads are already there...

* You have to support garbage trucks being able to reach every business and residential building. I love the idea of having pooled shared trash areas but in practice it just means more litter and worse public health because you've just increased the cost of disposing of rotten food.

* There are going to be people that actually want land for their hobbies like gardening, woodworking, smithing. You can push them to the suburbs but they'll still need to come into the town center to buy things and more area to cover means higher public transportation costs and lower ride density.

* You have have a system to deal with the fact that people's lives change. A family whose jobs were both previously local and close are now split and aren't walkable.

* Housing a school districts are 'sticky' to families because people put down roots in a place.

* The town needs to bring in outside money -- really no way around this one which means you need some industry (which if your lucky is walkable and fits in with the small town vibes but probably isn't) and tourism / business travel to support secondary industries who are coming in with ... cars. And since not all industry is office jobs that can be done anywhere/remotely you'll probably need to push them outside the town square and figure out work transportation.

* You'll need a public transportation system which is almost surely going to be vehicle based because buses are cheap and flexible.

* You're also gonna need a way to get people to and from the nearest airport. You could try to get a small airport just outside of the town within range of your public transportation but most likely you'll either need private cars or a greyhound style system.

The dream of self-contained communities is the "movie-set" idealism. It's like we're ignoring all the factors that lead to the current state of things and pretending that they're just not problems anymore.

Re: The Rise of “Movie-Set Urbanism”

#54
post #33

Correct it's no vibrant, bustling organic downtown. But it's still a helluva lot better than nothing at all. The suburbs I grew up in? There were a bunch of shitty strip malls, and a single indoor mall with a single food court with zero natural lighting, taken over by teenagers after school because it was literally the only place to congregate besides the parking lot outside the supermarket. There was no local "cente…

A bit more expensive but they could add a few underground floors for parking. In cold , snowy climates this might even be an advantage. This would waste less surface area to parking lots but would add some cost.

Some purpose built ski resort towns in France are like that - they have a huge warren of underground car parks and access tunnels between the buildings - e.g. Belle Plagne.

Re: The Rise of “Movie-Set Urbanism”

#55
post #12

> Until you deal with the parking problem—which is done by building truly mixed-use places where people can meet their daily needs without hopping in the car—you haven’t created true urbanism. Daily needs means jobs for both you and your spouse, which won’t be in some random subdivision in Florida. It means schools, which don’t appear to be there either. It means the kids’ after school activities, again, missing from…

Are you fellow Restonite? If so, "Hi!"

RTC and the current major development is an interesting case... RTC predates the expansion of the subway system, so drive-to urbanism was, as you suggest, a reasonable option given other constraints.

Now that the Metro is (almost) expanded past Reston to the airport, there is (was?) an opportunity to build a true human-scale urban environment (at least within the designated development area, roughly between Sunrise and Sunset Rds and just east of Whiele to just west of RTC).

However, that's not what we're seeing. Developers are dropping absolutely massive buildings (several blocks square) with little in the way to pedestrian access. The new complex on the north side of Weihle Station is NOT accessible by foot - you have to cross 8 lanes of traffic coming from the east, and if you "win" that game of Frogger, it's not intuitive how to access the new complex - it's a disjointed mess, at least visually.

The new development south of RTC (Halley Rise, where my office is located) isn't any better. The new Wegmans building doesn't align with existing roads and is several blocks wide. Getting from Halley Rise to RTC requires another game of Frogger across the Reston Parkway bridge (at which point, you have to cross the parking lots at Bechtel and Microsoft).

It's really frustrating as a resident and worker in the area. It seems the real problem is the cost of legal/political approval for development is so high that it only makes sense to do giant buildings that don't work at a human scale. There's no mix of building sizes/uses - it's just whatever the developer thinks will be most profitable today, with little regard for future evolution (short of tear down and rebuild the whole thing in 20 years).

Re: The Rise of “Movie-Set Urbanism”

#56

So his issue is people needing someplace to park their cars? They arranged the buildings in an aesthetically pleasing way to disguise all the parking, I say bravo.

The very existence of personal transportation in the form of current size vehicles works against "walkability". It is clear one cannot have both.

Re: The Rise of “Movie-Set Urbanism”

#57

Why is there no multilevel parking? All that space can't be cheap. Is there zoning laws against it?

>All that space can't be cheap.

It is, and it's why dense housing can't compete. Cars are cheap, fuel is cheap, land is cheap. In the short term, other costs, such as harm to walkability, lack of community, pollution, etc are not quantifiable or too far out in the long term to make it a viable business proposition to go with density.

Re: The Rise of “Movie-Set Urbanism”

#58
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Really I think these "main streets shops" are designs to replace strip malls in suburban environments, which in my opinion is infinitely better.

Isn't it pretty much the exact same thing?

This one is pretty much the same thing, but there are plenty of others that combine shopping/residential in one. Effectively a suburban mall with apartments on top. Not my cup of tea, but clearly a step up in walkability over a traditional suburb.

Re: The Rise of “Movie-Set Urbanism”

#59
This makes me think of a lot of development projects in Detroit. They are promised to be these new urban multipurpose spaces and we don't even end up with the facade. Just tons of parking lots where there were supposed to be life.

Re: The Rise of “Movie-Set Urbanism”

#60
post #48

Correct it's no vibrant, bustling organic downtown. But it's still a helluva lot better than nothing at all. The suburbs I grew up in? There were a bunch of shitty strip malls, and a single indoor mall with a single food court with zero natural lighting, taken over by teenagers after school because it was literally the only place to congregate besides the parking lot outside the supermarket. There was no local "cente…

I mean... are you dismissing the bad because there’s worse? My takeaway is that this kind of new development looks better (“movie set”) than what you describe, but it does not meaningfully change how people use and interact with the space and with each other. The hard part is building a living, breathing, functional and healthy community on a continent that’s been built from the ground up around cars. There are so ma…

> There are so many examples everywhere in Europe and Asia, but I can’t think of many (any?) in North America.

Manhattan.

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