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U.S. surveillance laws have proven ineffective at countering terrorism

theprivacyissue.com

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Re: U.S. surveillance laws have proven ineffective at countering terrorism

#51

I'm not sure what the alternative is. Without some form of surveillance, you're never going to catch terrorists or other bad actors. You do, however, need to make sure there are strong checks and balances in place to ensure that people don't use it for nefarious purposes or for personal gain.

The structure of your statement has problems not related to the topic at all. When you take something away that never (or rarely) happens, how do you establish causality? Suppose I told you that taking bazookas away from people that live in the city prevents bear attacks? You might say that there aren't bear attacks in the city anyway, which would be true, but you couldn't prove it one way or another. Who knows, mayb…

Interestingly, the point of terrorism is to wreak massive changes on societies. The total death toll of all terrorist attacks in the U.S since 1970 is 3781; that compares to 3836 killed in the Iraq War; 36,500 killed annually in car accidents; and 291,557 killed by WW2. In terms of risk to our physical persons, the terrorists suck at it.

When Sept 11 happened the popular meme for why we were attacked was "Because they hate our freedom." On a strategic level, they're doing a dramatically good job at winning: look at how much our freedom has been curtailed since then. And they can do it without touching an American; rather, the fear of what they might do provokes the U.S. government into destroying our freedom for them.

(A secondary goal for Osama bin Laden was to bankrupt America, something they are also winning at: since 2001 the U.S. national debt has grown from $6T to $23T.)

Re: U.S. surveillance laws have proven ineffective at countering terrorism

#52
post #18

How can you prove that clandestine operations do or do not help? If it goes well, no one will ever know. If it fails, it's either covered up or is a huge scandal. It seems contrary to the entire idea of cover intelligence to claim success or failure.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism_in_the_United_States... This article links to a report that gives a number for terror incidents and how many were foiled. You can see a map here: https://www.typeinvestigations.org/domesticterror/ which talks about the incident, and in the case of foiled incidents, links to something like court proceedings. This doesn't necessarily show clandestine operations led to foiling the…

Those are publicly known cases and just normal counter terrorism investigations. This isn't applicable to clandestine US surveillance as seen in the FISA courts. FISA courts very much fall into "US surveillance" law but are kept secret.

Re: U.S. surveillance laws have proven ineffective at countering terrorism

#53
post #7

> "U.S. surveillance laws failed to counter terrorism" > "The patchwork of U.S. surveillance laws has proven ineffective at countering terrorism" Where is the proof? I can not find it in the article.

The problem is that effectiveness is not falsafiable. There is no real way to know what attacks would have occurred without the surveillance laws.

Re: U.S. surveillance laws have proven ineffective at countering terrorism

#54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Really? It doesn't even occur to you to address the issues that create "terrorists?"

Reasons behind the kind of terrorism for which mass surveillance is enforced (e.g., Muslim fundamentalists against American interests) have deep historical roots, too messy to be addressed. Britain and France had geopolitical and business interests in the Middle East since the 18-19th century. America since the 20th, when oil suddenly had all the spotlight. Fundamentalists are convinced that "the West" is the Devil o…

We could at least address domestic terrorism.

Re: U.S. surveillance laws have proven ineffective at countering terrorism

#55
post #8
post #7

> "U.S. surveillance laws failed to counter terrorism" > "The patchwork of U.S. surveillance laws has proven ineffective at countering terrorism" Where is the proof? I can not find it in the article.

Intel work is like IT; if you're doing it right, nobody knows you're doing anything at all.

The bar is higher when you do wetworks.

Re: U.S. surveillance laws have proven ineffective at countering terrorism

#56
post #43

The threat of terror gives power to the State. Power seeks more power. The State does not erode freedoms in support of safety. The State erodes freedoms to achieve more power. Terror is the excuse. It is the State's greatest tool.

People say these types of things, but they don't revolt. Have we reached a point where we are okay with a corrupt government as long as amazon prime ships us our toys within two days? Convenience and comfort seems like it's worth more to people than liberty and a good conscience.

Re: U.S. surveillance laws have proven ineffective at countering terrorism

#57
post #43

The threat of terror gives power to the State. Power seeks more power. The State does not erode freedoms in support of safety. The State erodes freedoms to achieve more power. Terror is the excuse. It is the State's greatest tool.

> Those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety. - Benjamin Franklin

Re: U.S. surveillance laws have proven ineffective at countering terrorism

#58
post #43

The threat of terror gives power to the State. Power seeks more power. The State does not erode freedoms in support of safety. The State erodes freedoms to achieve more power. Terror is the excuse. It is the State's greatest tool.

The state is made up of individuals. Who are these individuals that are seeking power?

Re: U.S. surveillance laws have proven ineffective at countering terrorism

#59
post #19

> The Privacy Issue is brought to you by the team behind IVPN. Get to know IVPN’s mission and download the app to browse privately and securely. Ugh. It's a fine article, but I worry the VPN industry's constant mis-selling of services under the banner of privacy will eventually taint the message.

What is the mis-selling exactly? Doesn't seem to me that they're saying using their VPN will make you impenetrable to dedicated actors with nation-state resources. VPNs do help maintain one small level of privacy (namely from your ISP), and if you're using one it's a good bet you'll be interested in other privacy concerns too. There are a lot of VPNs with really bogus claims on their websites but I didn't notice anyt…

> VPNs do help maintain one small level of privacy (namely from your ISP)

So you've transferred the lack of privacy from one company (your ISP) to another (your VPN vendor). Heck - look what happened to Onavo - facebook bought them and reaped a treasure trove of private browsing habits.

Re: U.S. surveillance laws have proven ineffective at countering terrorism

#60

I'm not sure what the alternative is. Without some form of surveillance, you're never going to catch terrorists or other bad actors. You do, however, need to make sure there are strong checks and balances in place to ensure that people don't use it for nefarious purposes or for personal gain.

Some does not mean you need to do what the US government is doing now.

There are alternatives:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LufSe8-50-s&

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