Makes sense. Send a reminder instead of a fine notice.
"Return our book and it will cost you $X. Keep it forever and it will cost you nothing". That's a poor mechanic.
Chicago book returns surge 240% after city eliminates fines
51–60 of 146 posts
Re: Chicago book returns surge 240% after city eliminates fines
#52If no fines, what prevents the people from taking the books and not return them again? Wanting to borrow new books? Ah, fair enough. (Just putting this out loud for people which didn't reach this conclusion yet, it took me a while.) PS: Maybe the real way to fix this is paying a deposit upfront when becoming a member of the library, which is not high price, just the cost of an average book. You'd get this deposit whe…
People tend to behave differently with libraries than typical economics might suggest. People view the library as a shared resource, something the community owns together. The resistance to returning the borrowed items more often comes from embarrassment or shame than it does entitlement or attempted theft.
Re: Chicago book returns surge 240% after city eliminates fines
#53If no fines, what prevents the people from taking the books and not return them again? Wanting to borrow new books? Ah, fair enough. (Just putting this out loud for people which didn't reach this conclusion yet, it took me a while.) PS: Maybe the real way to fix this is paying a deposit upfront when becoming a member of the library, which is not high price, just the cost of an average book. You'd get this deposit whe…
> You'd get this deposit when you decide to stop being a member.
Now people will cancel their membership when they need their $15 back in fast cash. Probably the people who could use the library the most.
Re: Chicago book returns surge 240% after city eliminates fines
#54Earlier quoted context omitted.
Rent for the poor is compulsory But taxes for the rich are often not. Greece has a proud tradition of this... https://aeon.co/ideas/voluntary-taxation-a-lesson-from-the-a... Also safety nets for poor are begrudged because they are funded by Government taxes but safety nets for the rich are welcomed because they are funded by banks, and money of depositors and investors, since individuals who bail you out can (expecte…
I'm having a bit of trouble determining if that was a reply to my comment. My only point was that if things are optional to pay for, lots of people will take the thing, and not pay. That's why the grocery store hires cashiers, rather than being on the honor system.
That's not why cashiers are there.
The cashier is there for when you decide to pay for your goods.
If you try and walk out with them, the cashier will not stop you. For legal reasons, even the security probably won't touch you.
The reason most people who don't steal isn't the punishment, it's because they don't want to steal.
Likewise, removing the fine doesn't make a late book not late.
People do not have some inherent want to break social conventions like stealing or overstaying your lease on something.
Re: Chicago book returns surge 240% after city eliminates fines
#55Many parents know one of the good parenting rules is that incentivizing good behaviors works better than punishment for bad behaviors. This is another case where it applies to human behavior beyond children.
Re: Chicago book returns surge 240% after city eliminates fines
#56For those interested in the actual policy:
> [C]hecked-out books automatically will renew as many as 15 times, as long as no one else places a hold on them...Items will be marked as "lost" and accounts will be charged a replacement fee one week after the last due date, but the charge will be cleared if the item is returned
https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/breaking/ct-chicago-libr...
Curious to see some library data guru openly analyze the consequences...
Re: Chicago book returns surge 240% after city eliminates fines
#57Earlier quoted context omitted.
Having the opportunity to do _good_, rather than being compelled to do something by threat or violence, can be really productive
You call a fine for late book return threat or violence? I dunno, but I'm going to stop paying rent if there is no penalty.
For most people there is no penalty besides after a long period of time of and money spent by your landlord, eventually you'll get forcibly evicted, and they might even pay you to do leave before then.
People squat on apartments all the time. Some people go from home to home never paying rent, and never see a real punishment for it.
But it's unethical, and against social norms.
Just like keeping books forever (stealing) just because there's no late fee.
Re: Chicago book returns surge 240% after city eliminates fines
#58It's weird that in an era of zero-cost digital availability of practically everything mankind has ever produced we still care about the details of distributing printed-out copies of books.
Digital distribution has zero marginal cost and practically everyone has a device capable of reading the entire archive of humanity. Why do we still care about books per se?
Re: Chicago book returns surge 240% after city eliminates fines
#59I honestly think it is the novelty of suddenly not having fines rather than the actual not having of fines. IMHO (most) people don’t not return books when they’re a day or a week late because of fines. Ultimately, I believe it’s too early to draw any conclusions beyond observing the number of books returned for now . It will certainly be interesting to see where the steady state will wind up, though. (I’m a CPL membe…
All this is fair, but, at the same time, Chicago is far from the first library system to do this. It's just the largest. And it seems quite likely that it'll work out in Chicago the same way it has elsewhere. Other libraries are seeing that the benefits last. You're maybe minimizing what the fines can amount to. As a parent of small children, I can say from experience that a load of books from the children's library,…
My local public library recently eliminated fines for children's books acknowledging that a fine for a large pile of kids books could seem overwhelming.
Re: Chicago book returns surge 240% after city eliminates fines
#60Earlier quoted context omitted.
I'm having a bit of trouble determining if that was a reply to my comment. My only point was that if things are optional to pay for, lots of people will take the thing, and not pay. That's why the grocery store hires cashiers, rather than being on the honor system.
That's not why cashiers are there. The cashier is there for when you decide to pay for your goods. If you try and walk out with them, the cashier will not stop you. For legal reasons, even the security probably won't touch you. The reason most people who don't steal isn't the punishment, it's because they don't want to steal. Likewise, removing the fine doesn't make a late book not late. People do not have some inher…
I imagine you don't live in the city. More and more of the merchandise at Safeway is behind lock and key (shampoo, toothbrushes, etc), and incidents with security detaining someone (who is often making a very loud scene) are not at all uncommon.
Regardless, I don't agree with your theory. It might work for a while, but as soon as people see other people getting things for free, and the prices they pay go up to compensate, they tend to decide not to be the suckers anymore.
I mean, look how quickly looting can start. Look at all the people willing to exploit loopholes in the system to cheat people out of money. Look at corruption in countries where it isn't effectively policed against. Look at how crime is celebrated in a significant amount of American culture (especially music).
And especially, look at how hard it is to make a buck by offering your software or music or what-have-you as "donation ware."
The reason people don't want to steal is that they have been in environments where, if they are dishonest, people eventually are onto them and don't trust them and otherwise "punish" them, even if just by social pressure and shaming and such. If they are in environments where this isn't the case, especially if they have been in such environments for a long time, they adapt to those environments.
Do you really think a grocery store would stay in business long if there was absolutely no tangible downside to just walking out without paying?