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Chicago book returns surge 240% after city eliminates fines

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Re: Chicago book returns surge 240% after city eliminates fines

#41

Post by laugable »

ComputerGuru wrote: post #3

I honestly think it is the novelty of suddenly not having fines rather than the actual not having of fines. IMHO (most) people don’t not return books when they’re a day or a week late because of fines. Ultimately, I believe it’s too early to draw any conclusions beyond observing the number of books returned for now . It will certainly be interesting to see where the steady state will wind up, though. (I’m a CPL membe…

Having the opportunity to do _good_, rather than being compelled to do something by threat or violence, can be really productive

Re: Chicago book returns surge 240% after city eliminates fines

#42

Post by baddox »

geofft wrote: post #20
chrischen wrote: post #2

Between not paying fines and not paying fines, of course people are going to choose to not pay fines.

But that's not the choice, the choice is between paying the fine or being unable to use the library. The whole idea behind fines is that 1) imposing fines motivates people to return books on time and 2) disabling future borrowing motivates people to pay the fine, thereby making the motivation from 1 actually work. I don't think it's an "of course" level of obviousness that this scheme doesn't work in practice—otherwi…

But according to your logic, you would also oppose the first library doing this by making the same claim: that if it were obvious, it would have happened long ago.

Maybe it’s the case that the library has new information and/or is committed to a new or reinvigorated mission, and that this decision is an obvious step toward accomplishing that mission.

Re: Chicago book returns surge 240% after city eliminates fines

#43

Post by 60654 »

reaperducer wrote: post #28

I think what's being missed in the discussion on HN is the reason CPL eliminated fines. It's not about the money, nor is it about getting the books back. It's to improve access to the library system. CPL did a study of who held the cards with suspended privileges because of late fees, and found out that the vast majority were people in poor neighborhoods, and of those the vast majority were children. Now with the new…

This seems like an excellent move on the part of the library system and mayor's office. I don't have a horse in this race (no late books in a long time) but it's great to see this being implemented for everybody's benefit.

Re: Chicago book returns surge 240% after city eliminates fines

#44

Post by kunai »

reaperducer wrote: post #28

I think what's being missed in the discussion on HN is the reason CPL eliminated fines. It's not about the money, nor is it about getting the books back. It's to improve access to the library system. CPL did a study of who held the cards with suspended privileges because of late fees, and found out that the vast majority were people in poor neighborhoods, and of those the vast majority were children. Now with the new…

Wonder how rayiner is going to pop up in this thread to tell us how this is a terrible thing.

Re: Chicago book returns surge 240% after city eliminates fines

#45

Post by robbrown451 »

laugable wrote: post #41
ComputerGuru wrote: post #3

I honestly think it is the novelty of suddenly not having fines rather than the actual not having of fines. IMHO (most) people don’t not return books when they’re a day or a week late because of fines. Ultimately, I believe it’s too early to draw any conclusions beyond observing the number of books returned for now . It will certainly be interesting to see where the steady state will wind up, though. (I’m a CPL membe…

Having the opportunity to do _good_, rather than being compelled to do something by threat or violence, can be really productive

You call a fine for late book return threat or violence?

I dunno, but I'm going to stop paying rent if there is no penalty.

Re: Chicago book returns surge 240% after city eliminates fines

#46

Post by EGreg »

laugable wrote: post #41
ComputerGuru wrote: post #3

I honestly think it is the novelty of suddenly not having fines rather than the actual not having of fines. IMHO (most) people don’t not return books when they’re a day or a week late because of fines. Ultimately, I believe it’s too early to draw any conclusions beyond observing the number of books returned for now . It will certainly be interesting to see where the steady state will wind up, though. (I’m a CPL membe…

Having the opportunity to do _good_, rather than being compelled to do something by threat or violence, can be really productive

Reminds me of this too:

http://freakonomics.com/2013/10/23/what-makes-people-do-what...

Re: Chicago book returns surge 240% after city eliminates fines

#47

Post by EGreg »

robbrown451 wrote: post #45
laugable wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having the opportunity to do _good_, rather than being compelled to do something by threat or violence, can be really productive

You call a fine for late book return threat or violence? I dunno, but I'm going to stop paying rent if there is no penalty.

Rent for the poor is compulsory

But taxes for the rich are often not. Greece has a proud tradition of this...

https://aeon.co/ideas/voluntary-taxation-a-lesson-from-the-a...

Also safety nets for poor are begrudged because they are funded by Government taxes but safety nets for the rich are welcomed because they are funded by banks, and money of depositors and investors, since individuals who bail you out can (expected value) personally do better inside the bank than individuals who foreclose and help the bank (eg Trump’s bailouts after Taj Mahal etc.)

Re: Chicago book returns surge 240% after city eliminates fines

#48

Post by knocte »

If no fines, what prevents the people from taking the books and not return them again? Wanting to borrow new books? Ah, fair enough. (Just putting this out loud for people which didn't reach this conclusion yet, it took me a while.)

PS: Maybe the real way to fix this is paying a deposit upfront when becoming a member of the library, which is not high price, just the cost of an average book. You'd get this deposit when you decide to stop being a member.

Re: Chicago book returns surge 240% after city eliminates fines

#49

Post by robbrown451 »

EGreg wrote: post #47
robbrown451 wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You call a fine for late book return threat or violence? I dunno, but I'm going to stop paying rent if there is no penalty.

Rent for the poor is compulsory But taxes for the rich are often not. Greece has a proud tradition of this... https://aeon.co/ideas/voluntary-taxation-a-lesson-from-the-a... Also safety nets for poor are begrudged because they are funded by Government taxes but safety nets for the rich are welcomed because they are funded by banks, and money of depositors and investors, since individuals who bail you out can (expecte…

I'm having a bit of trouble determining if that was a reply to my comment.

My only point was that if things are optional to pay for, lots of people will take the thing, and not pay. That's why the grocery store hires cashiers, rather than being on the honor system.

Re: Chicago book returns surge 240% after city eliminates fines

#50

Post by nbanks »

Presuming you still can't borrow a new book if you have overdue books at home, and you still have to pay for lost books, this seems reasonable. It reminds me of the old-school netflix DVD rental system where you can keep a movie as long as you want, but can't get a new one until you return the previous one. It also reminds me of being able to take out books for 3-5 months at a time as a grad student--it was so much nicer than undergrad!
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