The FBI Is Tracking Our Faces in Secret, and We’re Suing • Hacker News Board

Re: The FBI Is Tracking Our Faces in Secret, and We’re Suing

#51

Post by nl » Thu, Oct 31, 2019, 9:23 PM UTC

mieseratte wrote: post #40

andyburke wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here are just a couple of recent examples that invalidate your claim. They were pretty easy to find: https://www.foxnews.com/entertainment/aclu-defends-article-l... https://www.cnn.com/2017/08/16/politics/aclu-free-speech-whi...

> Here are just a couple of recent examples that invalidate your claim. They were pretty easy to find: These are several years old. Can you find something from the past year? Turnover happens, missions change. From the outside, looks like they've changed.

Some in a snowmobile race in Alaska refused to talk to police. They found some excuse to arrest him. ACLU is suing for violation of first amendment:

https://www.aclu.org/cases/nieves-v-bartlett-17-1174

A guy setup a clothing brand called FUCT. Trademark denied because Brunetti’s application was refused on the ground that FUCT is “scandalous.” In reaching that conclusion the Board also noted that Brunetti’s website and blog contained “anti-social imagery,” was “lacking in taste,” and contained themes of “misogyny” and “extreme nihilism.”

https://www.aclu.org/cases/iancu-v-brunetti

Re: The FBI Is Tracking Our Faces in Secret, and We’re Suing

#52

Post by kick » Thu, Oct 31, 2019, 9:25 PM UTC

dealpete wrote: post #46

kick wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"doesn't use JavaScript" and "can't work without JavaScript" are two separate issues. Google, the most popular page on the internet, doesn't force you to use Javascript.

I did some experiments the other day and found to my surprise that Google has by far the best no-Javascript experience of the major search engines. Duck Duck Go could learn a thing or two from them.

DuckDuckGo works perfectly without JavaScript; just use https://duckduckgo.com/html or https://duckduckgo.com/lite.

Re: The FBI Is Tracking Our Faces in Secret, and We’re Suing

#53

Post by Falling3 » Thu, Oct 31, 2019, 9:29 PM UTC

sp332 wrote: post #45

Falling3 wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Absolutely no functionality with javascript turned off.

It's all working fine for me - messages, feed, photos. I can't see that it contains, loads, or calls any JS on the page at all.

I've tried disabling javascript several ways, and they all lead to a complete crippling of the site. 30+ JS scripts are load. As it should be obvious from using the mobile version of the site that it makes heavy use of javascript. Even the source is riddled with script tags. I have no idea how you're coming to your conclusion, but it matches none of what I'm seeing.

Re: The FBI Is Tracking Our Faces in Secret, and We’re Suing

#54

Post by diafygi » Thu, Oct 31, 2019, 9:29 PM UTC

dorchadas wrote: post #14

caconym_ wrote: post #7

I wish we would stop emphasizing the social justice/accuracy concerns so heavily when talking about this. Starting that way will cause a huge segment of the population to switch off as soon as you start talking. Imagine it works perfectly, and a three-letter agency with practically zero oversight, transparency, or accountability is collecting an accurate history of every single thing you do--everywhere you go, who yo…

Sadly, I know a lot of people who are ok with that. They're very much of the opinion, "Well, I'm doing nothing wrong, so I don't care. Especially if it helps catch bad guys". Not really sure how to fight that.

> Not really sure how to fight that.

Rather than trying to challenge them on whether they really do have anything to hide, I usually try to challenge their assumption that privacy is an individual right. Privacy isn't an individual right. It's a societal right. It's there to ensure those who want to make change can effectively organize, which is necessary in a democratic society. So you have the right to privacy whether you like it to or not, because society needs it. Keeping your individual porn habits secret is a side effect.

People who tend to argue, "I have nothing to hide," usually think well of themselves. So if you can get them thinking of privacy as a social good, more "we" than "me", then you can show them that supporting privacy protections is more of an altruistic gesture than a vice.

If they want a specific example, the I usually talk about women's suffrage. It's only been 100 years since women didn't have the right to vote in the U.S., and suffragettes were extremely effective in 1919 by organizing privately then showing up in mass to overwhelm legislatures and mount demonstrations that couldn't be silenced or hidden. If lawmakers knew about all those damn women organizing such big events, women likely would not have been successful at getting the right to vote.

Privacy is the lubricant that lets society move, whether it's pro-life movements, pro-pot movements, or any other political movement. They all need privacy to actually be successful.

Re: The FBI Is Tracking Our Faces in Secret, and We’re Suing

#55

Post by triceratops » Thu, Oct 31, 2019, 9:30 PM UTC

caconym_ wrote: post #7

I wish we would stop emphasizing the social justice/accuracy concerns so heavily when talking about this. Starting that way will cause a huge segment of the population to switch off as soon as you start talking. Imagine it works perfectly, and a three-letter agency with practically zero oversight, transparency, or accountability is collecting an accurate history of every single thing you do--everywhere you go, who yo…

> Starting that way will cause a huge segment of the population to switch off as soon as you start talking.

Why is that? Is a huge segment of the population in favor of social injustice?

Re: The FBI Is Tracking Our Faces in Secret, and We’re Suing

#56

Post by throwaway_law » Thu, Oct 31, 2019, 9:35 PM UTC

mfer wrote: post #31

wlesieutre wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And on the off chance someone reading this is OK with the government doing that for law enforcement purposes, also consider that >At least a dozen U.S. National Security Agency employees have been caught using secret government surveillance tools to spy on the emails or phone calls of their current or former spouses and lovers in the past decade, according to the intelligence agency’s internal watchdog. before giving…

I've spoken with people who have said they are ok with it. But, when I start asking questions or sharing details on how this has been abused I tend to find they have not thought it through and are often unaware. In some cases people think I'm crazy until I show them press coverage on it. I've learned that many don't have the depth of knowledge I have on the topic and have formed opinions with a puddles worth of infor…

>I've spoken with people who have said they are ok with it, when I start asking questions or sharing details on how this has been abused I tend to find they have not thought it through

In the future just ask them to unlock their phone and hand it to you so you can look at their email, text and browser history. Watch them hesitate and refuse.

Re: The FBI Is Tracking Our Faces in Secret, and We’re Suing

#57

Post by the_af » Thu, Oct 31, 2019, 9:36 PM UTC

Kalium wrote: post #48

the_af wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I wish we would stop emphasizing the social justice/accuracy concerns so heavily when talking about this Do you mean like the historical racism and anti-black bias of the FBI, as mentioned in the article? I want it emphasized. Like someone else said, a lot of people are fine with some authority they perceive as benevolent (or as fighting evildoers) to control every detail of their lives. They would answer your ques…

I believe the point being made is that those points are effective at reaching people who need little to no convincing and who are already politically supportive. The same points about historical wrongs done to other people unlike them are more likely to alienate the readers who are not currently politically supportive. To put it another way, preaching to the choir doesn't win you more votes.

I understand the preaching to the choir thing. But a lot of people aren't even aware of the history of the FBI. This isn't even a detailed history, just mentioning some scary and relevant facts about the organization that not everyone is necessarily aware of.

I think that speaking in technical, generic and hypothetical terms isn't effective. You have to ground the conversation in actual misdeeds. Otherwise you're likely to get the "but I don't have anything to hide" response.

Re: The FBI Is Tracking Our Faces in Secret, and We’re Suing

#58

Post by Kalium » Thu, Oct 31, 2019, 9:37 PM UTC

threatofrain wrote: post #50

Kalium wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe the point being made is that those points are effective at reaching people who need little to no convincing and who are already politically supportive. The same points about historical wrongs done to other people unlike them are more likely to alienate the readers who are not currently politically supportive. To put it another way, preaching to the choir doesn't win you more votes.

But if preaching to the non-choir loses you votes, doesn't that just mean we should stop preaching 'it' altogether?

You're right! That's a very real and very reasonable concern.

That said, it's fairly uncommon that the choir actually walks away electorally. It tends to require something very dramatic, like Roy Moore. It's far more common that they grumble a bit and vote for whatever anyway, because you committed the sin of advocating for the policies they want while not centering the FBI's racist history.

Again, your concerns are quite reasonable. It's just perhaps possible that what it takes to lose those votes is more than might be guessed.

Re: The FBI Is Tracking Our Faces in Secret, and We’re Suing

#59

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Oct 31, 2019, 9:37 PM UTC

throw1234651234 wrote: post #11

pmoriarty wrote: post #9

Ironically, it's impossible to read this ACLU page without enabling Javascript, which opens one up to more browser fingerprinting attacks, potential Javascript vulenrabilities, and tracking.

I am hard-pressed to think of a popular page which doesn't use JavaScript.

[deleted]

Re: The FBI Is Tracking Our Faces in Secret, and We’re Suing

#60

Post by caconym_ » Thu, Oct 31, 2019, 9:38 PM UTC

the_af wrote: post #30

caconym_ wrote: post #7

I wish we would stop emphasizing the social justice/accuracy concerns so heavily when talking about this. Starting that way will cause a huge segment of the population to switch off as soon as you start talking. Imagine it works perfectly, and a three-letter agency with practically zero oversight, transparency, or accountability is collecting an accurate history of every single thing you do--everywhere you go, who yo…

> I wish we would stop emphasizing the social justice/accuracy concerns so heavily when talking about this Do you mean like the historical racism and anti-black bias of the FBI, as mentioned in the article? I want it emphasized. Like someone else said, a lot of people are fine with some authority they perceive as benevolent (or as fighting evildoers) to control every detail of their lives. They would answer your ques…

I think it's baked into a certain conservative mindset that they are the ones who don't have anything to hide, which makes sense because if you don't have many progressive opinions then you probably aren't chafing against authority too often.

And, I think authoritarians (many of them seem to march under the "conservative" banner these days) are fine with surveillance because they see it as a hallmark of an effective authoritarian government, and again they see themselves as members of the "in" group. They want those subversives who are hiding things to be found and punished.

Unfortunately, I don't think any of these people will be terribly moved by the fact that leaders of progressive social movements in the past or present have been targeted by surveillance. Their world-views are shaped by a perception that they will not be targeted by an overreaching government, and such movements are comprised of their explicit political enemies.

However, I think we stand to win over a lot of people with a libertarian bent who might be turned off by an anti-surveillance movement strongly associated with modern leftism. To what degree we risk alienating those leftists, I have no idea.