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Plane Tests Must Use Average Pilots, NTSB Says After 737 Max Crashes

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Re: Plane Tests Must Use Average Pilots, NTSB Says After 737 Max Crashes

#51
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t know what you think ‘average’ means. Median is an average.

Most commonly it is used for the mean though...

Mean wouldn’t make any sense in this context. Does a mean pilot even exist? Median pilots exist by definition.

Re: Plane Tests Must Use Average Pilots, NTSB Says After 737 Max Crashes

#52
post #31

I have 15 hours in a Cessna 172, I’d be happy to give it a go! But in all seriousness, in no way shape or form should the testing be informed by the skill assessment of the test operator. The analysis should be looking at the tasks that had to be performed during the test, whether they were properly identified by easily selected checklists, and quantitative measurements of the complexity and physical difficulty of th…

You could take a probabilistic approach...

In this 1 in a million situation, 90% of tested pilots managed to follow the procedures to recover. Therefore the chance of a fatal crash is 1 in 10 million.

Let the manufacturer decide if they want to make the situation rarer or the training better to reduce the overall crash risk.

Re: Plane Tests Must Use Average Pilots, NTSB Says After 737 Max Crashes

#53

The primary design objective of the 737 max was to avoid pilot retraining. Until that stops being a major economic driver in aviation no problem was solved here. Changing MCAS another dozen times and updating the manuals does nothing to prevent this from happening in new future system design.

It's not just limited to pilot retraining. It's also about the rating on the air-frame, and grandfathering in saftey features/systems etc that wouldn't cut it on modern reviews, like the doors.

Re: Plane Tests Must Use Average Pilots, NTSB Says After 737 Max Crashes

#54
post #21

Uh oh. What are they going to do when they discover that there aren't any average pilots? https://www.thestar.com/news/insight/2016/01/16/when-us-air-... (HN discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11230287 ) https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2016/02/the-inv... (HN discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11155889 )

Average does not have the same meaning in the context of this link and yours. We are not talking about physical measurements here.

Re: Plane Tests Must Use Average Pilots, NTSB Says After 737 Max Crashes

#55
post #21

Uh oh. What are they going to do when they discover that there aren't any average pilots? https://www.thestar.com/news/insight/2016/01/16/when-us-air-... (HN discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11230287 ) https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2016/02/the-inv... (HN discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11155889 )

[deleted]

Re: Plane Tests Must Use Average Pilots, NTSB Says After 737 Max Crashes

#57
post #23

Wouldn't you need the worse pilot you can get? Average doesn't account for the fact that 50% of the sample are WORSE.

Robert Sheckley has a short story called The Minimum Man, which is about precisely this. An unlucky, clumsy, error-prone schlub who gets hired by basically-NASA for testing purposes. Turns out, when he's placed in a life-or-death situation, he finds some focus and skill, and is no longer the minimum man. So they have some ways to counter that tendency....

> So they have some ways to counter that tendency....

Alcohol?

Re: Plane Tests Must Use Average Pilots, NTSB Says After 737 Max Crashes

#58
post #23

Wouldn't you need the worse pilot you can get? Average doesn't account for the fact that 50% of the sample are WORSE.

Robert Sheckley has a short story called The Minimum Man, which is about precisely this. An unlucky, clumsy, error-prone schlub who gets hired by basically-NASA for testing purposes. Turns out, when he's placed in a life-or-death situation, he finds some focus and skill, and is no longer the minimum man. So they have some ways to counter that tendency....

That correlates with something interesting I learnt about leadership a while back - evidence shows that it's very hard to predict ahead of time whether someone will be a good leader from one context to another, with predicted good leaders often underperforming, and vice versa (might be a little out of date now).

Re: Plane Tests Must Use Average Pilots, NTSB Says After 737 Max Crashes

#59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a role for test pilots in aircraft development, and certification pilots, used in rating an aircraft for commercial use. You'll want the good ones for that first task.

I think trying to think of pilots as being good or bad on some abstract scale is almost certainly an oversimplification. The reality is probably more like for developers, some of the best developers in terms of achievements are not people you'd want to work with on a daily basis. In the same way that an F1 driver wouldn't necessarily be the world's best bus driver.

A principle in software is to never write the most complicated code you possibly can, because maintenance is harder than writing, and if you could only just barely write it in the first place, you won't be able to maintain it.

The principle for pilots is similar.

As to skills assessments, you're right, it's difficult. But you can use some general proxies. Certification pilots should be drawn from a standard pool, not a test-pilot pool. Some sense of performance on some standardised battery of qualification flights or simulator check-flights might be used, with scoring based on success or performance in identifying and addressing conditions encountered.

The fact that a precise quantity cannot be confidently stated doesn't mean that no quantity or range can be given.

And for the sake of the certification pilots, I'm assuming check-out flights would either be in simulators or with a more qualified check pilot assisting.

Re: Plane Tests Must Use Average Pilots, NTSB Says After 737 Max Crashes

#60
Sounds like FAA & Boeing are trying to place blame on pilot error for the MAX crashes, to deflect attention from the MCAS issue and the FAA's failure to notice it. I agree with the conclusions as the majority of aircraft accidents are pilot error, but in the case of MAX there is nothing the pilots could have done to save those aircraft.
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