Federal Prosecutors Conducting Criminal Probe of Juul • Hacker News Board

Re: Federal Prosecutors Conducting Criminal Probe of Juul

#51

Post by okcando » Mon, Sep 23, 2019, 9:11 PM UTC

webkike wrote: post #42

okcando wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lighters are inexpensive, common, and last a long time. Juul pods are age-restricted consumables, just like cigarettes. I think the lack of odor, more agreeable flavors, and less health or social stigma are more important. I doubt e-cigarettes differ much from cigarettes in how easy it is to get ahold of when underage, although perhaps adults are more willing to sell them to or buy them for teenagers on the belief th…

Sure, but it is still non trivial for teenagers to get lighters in California (where my experience comes from). The lighter is the juul itself. The cigarettes are the juul pods. A juul lasts longer than a lighter.

I had an experience as a teenager as well and "must produce fire" wasn't a meaningful obstacle. Of course your mileage may vary but lighters (and if not that, then matches certainly) were and are commonly found in households, ready to go missing.

And they last such a long time that frequency of replacement just does not matter compared to the cost and frequency of either cigarettes or vaping consumables.

Re: Federal Prosecutors Conducting Criminal Probe of Juul

#52

Post by thatcat » Mon, Sep 23, 2019, 9:15 PM UTC

dmix wrote: post #50

sbilstein wrote: post #44

One thing that gets lost in Juul and vaping supporters is just how bad nicotine addiction is for your personal life. I recently quit nicotine a few months ago and it made a big difference for me. Nicotine withdrawal kicks in very quick which is why smokers take constant breaks. The anxiety, the grumpiness, irritability and anger you feel as a smoker when you are without nicotine will piss off your partner, make you s…

Juul seems to have higher nicotine content than most of the traditional vaping juices. Even the new reusable nicotine salt devices. It's also pretty gross and strong by comparison IMO. But I guess it's for people who just stopped smoking cigarettes which is similarly harsh whenever I try them now.

The nicotine inhalation flux would be dependant on the coil used and amount of current, maybe they reduced the heating rate to reduce amount of filler in liquid required.

Re: Federal Prosecutors Conducting Criminal Probe of Juul

#53

Post by webkike » Mon, Sep 23, 2019, 9:18 PM UTC

bobwaycott wrote: post #49

webkike wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, but it is still non trivial for teenagers to get lighters in California (where my experience comes from). The lighter is the juul itself. The cigarettes are the juul pods. A juul lasts longer than a lighter.

A juul vaporizer does last longer than a lighter, but at a significantly higher cost. Lighters cost a buck or two and last for hundreds and hundreds of cigarettes. The juul vaporizer is also just as easy to misplace/lose as a lighter. As a former CA teen, lighters were absolutely trivial to get—and far less hassle than getting a juul vaporizer. Hell, you can find matches pretty damn easily, too. Edit: Assuming the av…

I'm not going to argue that it was major obstacle. Not at all. In fact I'm willing to concede that it is so much a non issue that I should not have included it on my list of reasons.

But there was definitely a year of my life less than six years ago when I was not able to purchase a lighter from any gas station in the bay area, and I'm absolutely certain that it has only gotten more difficult for teenagers since cigarettes now require you to be 21 to purchase.

And I should mention there is no law preventing the sale of lighters. People will just flat out refuse if you don't have an ID.

The times they are a changing

Re: Federal Prosecutors Conducting Criminal Probe of Juul

#54

Post by pault » Mon, Sep 23, 2019, 9:20 PM UTC

zippergz wrote: post #40

dumbfoundded wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe a better question is who would benefit from Juul failing? I'm not sure who. I don't think it's big tobacco. They need vaping to addict the next generation. Maybe vaping spend is taking away from another vice.

Those of us who are annoyed by people vaping around us would benefit from less vaping. I won't claim to know or believe that Juul specifically failing would actually lead to less vaping, but it can't hurt.

Are you annoyed by people using juul sticks, or just the big cloud blowers using big battery mods? If someone were using a juul in the next cubical I doubt I would even notice.

Re: Federal Prosecutors Conducting Criminal Probe of Juul

#55

Post by webkike » Mon, Sep 23, 2019, 9:20 PM UTC

flatline wrote: post #46

webkike wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In California when I was a teenager six years ago it certainly was an obstacle.

As someone who used to get lighters as a teenager just to have one, without using it to smoke (though in my later teens I smoked), I find this fascinating. Are smaller matchbooks also prohibited? Like others have mentioned, I never had trouble starting a fire as a teenage boy, it's like this inborn survival instinct.

There is literally zero statute or law preventing the sale of lighters to anyone. That being said, gas station attendants and Walgreens cashiers in the particular area I grew up (which was the bay area) would not sell them to anyone under 18. I have no idea about matches - I couldn't find them.

Re: Federal Prosecutors Conducting Criminal Probe of Juul

#56

Post by nullbyte » Mon, Sep 23, 2019, 9:21 PM UTC

saagarjha wrote: post #28

nullbyte wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Juuls are pervasive in modern day high school. Either you have one or your friend has one. My little sister told me that the bathrooms are basically used vape-stations between classes now, and most people have tried it.

Depends on the school, of course.

Good point. For perspective, this is happening in Southern California, LA area.

Re: Federal Prosecutors Conducting Criminal Probe of Juul

#57

Post by TeMPOraL » Mon, Sep 23, 2019, 9:21 PM UTC

t-writescode wrote: post #39

bsder wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why is it easier to buy juul pods than a pack of cigarettes? There are non-nicotine pods. And they have all of the social addictiveness even if they don't have actual nicotine in them.

if there’s no nicotine, then who cares? Magic the Gathering cards and pogs were addicting back in the day, but kids could still buy them.

If they have nicotine, then who cares either? Nicotine is addictive when combined with other substances in regular cigarettes. Not as a stand-alone chemical.

(Of course avoiding getting any kind of particulate in your lungs is better than getting it.)

Re: Federal Prosecutors Conducting Criminal Probe of Juul

#58

Post by KingMachiavelli » Mon, Sep 23, 2019, 9:23 PM UTC

sbilstein wrote: post #44

One thing that gets lost in Juul and vaping supporters is just how bad nicotine addiction is for your personal life. I recently quit nicotine a few months ago and it made a big difference for me. Nicotine withdrawal kicks in very quick which is why smokers take constant breaks. The anxiety, the grumpiness, irritability and anger you feel as a smoker when you are without nicotine will piss off your partner, make you s…

I've never been addicted to tobacco but I used to vape heavily in HS & currently on/off (my friend brings his vape(s) over, etc). I've never experienced anything to the extent you describe. I can definiently feel a desire, in that, I would rather be vaping vs not but not the the point that I've actually filled up any of my personal vapes recenctly or bought a new device.

It's well known that the other chemicals in tobacco act as MAIOs increasing the effect of nicotine which makes it more habbit forming - and I believe that extends to even after you switch to a nicotine replacement program.

Really, the most annoying thing is that tobaccoo is still legal are are both nicotine + cancer. At least vaping/nicotine alone won't kill you so it's strange that it gets more attention.

Re: Federal Prosecutors Conducting Criminal Probe of Juul

#59

Post by KingMachiavelli » Mon, Sep 23, 2019, 9:26 PM UTC

dmix wrote: post #50

sbilstein wrote: post #44

One thing that gets lost in Juul and vaping supporters is just how bad nicotine addiction is for your personal life. I recently quit nicotine a few months ago and it made a big difference for me. Nicotine withdrawal kicks in very quick which is why smokers take constant breaks. The anxiety, the grumpiness, irritability and anger you feel as a smoker when you are without nicotine will piss off your partner, make you s…

Juul seems to have higher nicotine content than most of the traditional vaping juices. Even the new reusable nicotine salt devices. It's also pretty gross and strong by comparison IMO. But I guess it's for people who just stopped smoking cigarettes which is similarly harsh whenever I try them now.

It's a nicotine salt so it's stronger but less harsh on your throught. A 50mgml nicotine salt concentration ends up being as 'strong' as ~28mg/ml nicotine freebase (since the salt makes up ~45% of the molar weight) but has the throat hit of like a 12mg/ml nicotine freebase.

The volume held in the device & volume per 'puff' is also a lot less hence the smaller devices.

Re: Federal Prosecutors Conducting Criminal Probe of Juul

#60

Post by pault » Mon, Sep 23, 2019, 9:27 PM UTC

AdamHede wrote: post #48

w3rhn2j34oh5o wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It really isn't killing kids, and I would challenge that they are 'targeting them'. As an adult vape user, I love the fruit flavors. They are for my (adult) use only. I would never let someone under 21 get access to this. Why should I be penalized because lots of kids are breaking the law? The recent (adult) deaths from Vaping are due to black market THC cartridges filled with vitamin e acetate. It is very likely the…

If you don't think fruity flavors target kids as at least collateral damage, will you tell me this is classical marketing aimed at your (adult) age group? https://s3-prod.adage.com/s3fs-public/styles/width_1024/publ... Also, no nicotine product is (safe). There is no safe amount. In my opinion, we should just work towards a smoke-free future. The analog to alcohol is a bit of a whataboutism. Just because alcohol is b…

What is the mechanism by which pure nicotine is harmful, other than a massive overdose (which can easily kill you). As far as I'm aware nicotine itself is no worse than caffeine. If you mean the other chemicals produced by the medium and the combustion process, you should be specific so it doesn't sound like fear mongering. Otherwise I'd be interested in hearing any objective evidence that the nicotine itself is harmful. I have to say though, when people talk about banning things because they believe it's for the greater good, my morality police spidey sense starts tingling.