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Drink Poison and Smile: How I Arrived at My Position of Pro-Democracy

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Re: Drink Poison and Smile: How I Arrived at My Position of Pro-Democracy

#51

Post by pimmen »

Animats wrote: post #35

Legislative bodies is in trouble. Britain seems to have just had a coup. Look at how Boris Johnson became Prime Minister, not by popular election but by vote of Conservative Party members only. And now he's suspending Parliament. The problems of the US Congress are well known. It used to run the country. Now it barely does anything.

I don't really understand what point you're making here. These legislative bodies still are not even as remotely bad as the CCP at respecting human rights.

You don't need to have a perfect government to be better than the CCP, you just need to have check and balances not to commit the atrocities the CCP is committing.

And by the way, we Swedes are still waiting for Gui Minhai to either be released or get a real trial, and the Swedish Ministry of Foreign Affairs would love to meet with him before such a trial in that case (I mean, this is a hit-and-run charge, not terrorism). To the UK and the US, this request would not be out of the ordinary and would've been handled years ago.

Re: Drink Poison and Smile: How I Arrived at My Position of Pro-Democracy

#52

Post by [deleted] »

normalhuman wrote: post #45
panny wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Russia is a democracy. The US was a democracy when it genocided the native Americans. askmike is right. Democracy alone won't help Hong Kong. China will not stop. Pacifist Hong Kong will be crushed, regardless the form of government. >Nobody ever wanted to escape the democratic side and jump in the other direction. Why? You've never heard of James Dresnok. Why? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0H5QZvOqlJM

> Russia is a democracy. The US was a democracy when it genocided the native Americans. askmike is right. Democracy alone won't help Hong Kong. China will not stop. Pacifist Hong Kong will be crushed, regardless the form of government. I am not claiming that democracy will save Hong Kong from China. What I am saying is that democracy is better than no democracy, and no amount of doublespeak or whatabbautism is going…

[deleted]

Re: Drink Poison and Smile: How I Arrived at My Position of Pro-Democracy

#53

Post by askmike »

_iyig wrote: post #50
askmike wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That’s the type of media blackout which I understand is currently imposed on Xinjiang. I personally think the UN human rights council is at least as important, as the international media's role in fixing human rights problems is debatable. In that light: https://www.theguardian.com/law/2019/jan/04/trump-administra... as the article states: > “They are sending a very dangerous message to other countries: that if you…

My point stands: UN human rights inspectors can enter Texas whenever they choose (no formal invite required!), but not Xinjiang. They can interview anyone they meet on the street in the US, but not in many parts of China. I'd also argue that the role of the UN Human Rights Council (whose recent illustrious members have included Venezuela, Cuba, the Philippines, Egypt, and Saudi Arabia) is minuscule compared to that o…

You mean they can't enter the "educational centers" in Xinjiang? Do you think they can easily enter the "detention centers" in Texas?

> I'd also argue that the role of the UN Human Rights Council (whose recent illustrious members have included Venezuela, Cuba, the Philippines, Egypt, and Saudi Arabia) is minuscule compared to that of the global press in terms of fomenting any actual change.

I mean the US is also a member, torturing people and commiting war crimes around the clock. Not sure you can dismiss the UN Human Rights Council due to the deeds of some members.

Re: Drink Poison and Smile: How I Arrived at My Position of Pro-Democracy

#54

Post by askmike »

vnorilo wrote: post #48
askmike wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On topic: He wants a different political system (democratic) and his arguments are that the current one did many bad things. My point is that changing the political system doesn't change the bad things he's talking about. As we can clearly see in many democratic systems in the world. I don't think I'll write a blogpost. Given the initial responses of my current comments I am sure it would get downvoted anyway.

Thank you for making a level argument. I think freedom of speech and press helps to bring abuses to daylight and rule of law is essential in reining them in. I believe both are more robust (but, not nearly perfect) in western democracies, and are included in this desire for reform.

> I think freedom of speech and press helps to bring abuses to daylight and rule of law is essential in reining them in.

I agree that they can be important, but they don't always solve many problems. Sometimes they even create problems: for example all the "fake news" and entities abusing social media platforms to manipulate elections.

Re: Drink Poison and Smile: How I Arrived at My Position of Pro-Democracy

#55

Post by _iyig »

askmike wrote: post #53
_iyig wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My point stands: UN human rights inspectors can enter Texas whenever they choose (no formal invite required!), but not Xinjiang. They can interview anyone they meet on the street in the US, but not in many parts of China. I'd also argue that the role of the UN Human Rights Council (whose recent illustrious members have included Venezuela, Cuba, the Philippines, Egypt, and Saudi Arabia) is minuscule compared to that o…

You mean they can't enter the "educational centers" in Xinjiang? Do you think they can easily enter the "detention centers" in Texas? > I'd also argue that the role of the UN Human Rights Council (whose recent illustrious members have included Venezuela, Cuba, the Philippines, Egypt, and Saudi Arabia) is minuscule compared to that of the global press in terms of fomenting any actual change. I mean the US is also a me…

Roughly 1-2 million Uyghur Muslims do not have the luxury of your equivocations, nor your freedom of expression, nor freedom. I encourage you to watch that entire VICE report I linked.

For comparison, here’s VICE News plus a bunch of reporters touring the ICE facility in El Paso:

https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/xweqgn/we-got-cameras-ins...

I’ve been chastised before for energetic commenting on this particular topic, and we’re hardly discussing HK now, so I’ll give it a rest.

Re: Drink Poison and Smile: How I Arrived at My Position of Pro-Democracy

#56

Post by askmike »

normalhuman wrote: post #45
panny wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Russia is a democracy. The US was a democracy when it genocided the native Americans. askmike is right. Democracy alone won't help Hong Kong. China will not stop. Pacifist Hong Kong will be crushed, regardless the form of government. >Nobody ever wanted to escape the democratic side and jump in the other direction. Why? You've never heard of James Dresnok. Why? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0H5QZvOqlJM

> Russia is a democracy. The US was a democracy when it genocided the native Americans. askmike is right. Democracy alone won't help Hong Kong. China will not stop. Pacifist Hong Kong will be crushed, regardless the form of government. I am not claiming that democracy will save Hong Kong from China. What I am saying is that democracy is better than no democracy, and no amount of doublespeak or whatabbautism is going…

> What I am saying is that democracy is better than no democracy, and no amount of doublespeak or whatabbautism is going to change that reality.

It's not reality, it's just your opinion (and those of most people living in democratic countries). Meanwhile the vast majority of Chinese people disagree with you.

Re: Drink Poison and Smile: How I Arrived at My Position of Pro-Democracy

#57

Post by normalhuman »

askmike wrote: post #56
normalhuman wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Russia is a democracy. The US was a democracy when it genocided the native Americans. askmike is right. Democracy alone won't help Hong Kong. China will not stop. Pacifist Hong Kong will be crushed, regardless the form of government. I am not claiming that democracy will save Hong Kong from China. What I am saying is that democracy is better than no democracy, and no amount of doublespeak or whatabbautism is going…

> What I am saying is that democracy is better than no democracy, and no amount of doublespeak or whatabbautism is going to change that reality. It's not reality, it's just your opinion (and those of most people living in democratic countries). Meanwhile the vast majority of Chinese people disagree with you.

Maybe they do disagree with me. It is impossible to know, because they are not free to say what they really think -- which is another fundamental problem with not-democracy.
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