Expecting programmers to problem solve for 8 hours is stupid • Hacker News Board

Re: Expecting programmers to problem solve for 8 hours is stupid

#51

Post by AlexanderNull » Fri, Jul 05, 2019, 9:42 PM UTC

One thing I do is keep a relatively small cup at my desk. I drink a lot especially when thinking hard and whenever that cup runs out that's my signal that it's time to take a break, grab more water, walk around a bit, maybe stare out the window for a few moments. Highly demanding mental work isn't something you should charge through nonstop, especially when there's a creative requirement to it like there is in problem solving, you just won't produce good solutions without allowing your brain to wander.

We also fought hard at work over the course of a year or two with management to change up how we account team capacity. It's now a max of 6h expected work per day on project work. There's simply not enough time for working any more in addition to all the various random emails, slack notifications, restroom breaks, and general cubicle chatter that's part of regular office work.

Re: Expecting programmers to problem solve for 8 hours is stupid

#52

Post by alexeiz » Fri, Jul 05, 2019, 10:26 PM UTC

reggieband wrote: post #31

Take some time out of problem solving and put it to other uses. For example: - document systems - write tests - improve automation (build systems, helper scripts, etc.) - clean your desk - talk to a coworker - read / watch material online related to your work - go for a quick brisk walk - any activity to further a long-term career plan I know that feeling of short-term daily burnout. It is often I get to 4:30pm and I…

> brisk walk

This is what I do. And it works wonders. Sitting the whole day in front of a computer can literally fry your brain. But I take a quick walk, and it resets. I start seeing things clearly. New ideas come to mind. If my coworkers see me they probably think I'm slacking off. But the fact is, it's often the most productive time of the day.

Re: Expecting programmers to problem solve for 8 hours is stupid

#53

Post by musicale » Fri, Jul 05, 2019, 10:36 PM UTC

Office environments (and perhaps most companies) tend to optimize for the appearance of work getting done rather than actually getting work done. As a result, most of the time spent in them causes stress without creating any benefit.

Moreover, forcing yourself to "work" when you are tired or simply done for the day also tends to create negative returns.

If your work requires sustained concentration, a typical office environment full of people (especially supervisors) and continuous interruptions from noise and other distractions is not the place to do it.

Re: Expecting programmers to problem solve for 8 hours is stupid

#54

Post by pkulak » Fri, Jul 05, 2019, 11:08 PM UTC

alexeiz wrote: post #52

reggieband wrote: post #31

Take some time out of problem solving and put it to other uses. For example: - document systems - write tests - improve automation (build systems, helper scripts, etc.) - clean your desk - talk to a coworker - read / watch material online related to your work - go for a quick brisk walk - any activity to further a long-term career plan I know that feeling of short-term daily burnout. It is often I get to 4:30pm and I…

> brisk walk This is what I do. And it works wonders. Sitting the whole day in front of a computer can literally fry your brain. But I take a quick walk, and it resets. I start seeing things clearly. New ideas come to mind. If my coworkers see me they probably think I'm slacking off. But the fact is, it's often the most productive time of the day.

I routinely send Amazon packages to a locker downtown instead of my house so I have someplace to walk to mid day when I really need it.

Re: Expecting programmers to problem solve for 8 hours is stupid

#55

Post by davidjnelson » Fri, Jul 05, 2019, 11:29 PM UTC

AnimalMuppet wrote: post #15

My first software manager said that the most you can get out of people is five hours of real work a day. She also said that programmers need to learn to tell when the most productive thing they can do is go look out the window.

It depends. 22 years here. I’ve had stretches of months I did 16 hours a day of programming, including weekends.. Literally roll out of bed, code, eat while coding, sleep. Most productive I’ve ever been, was in a complete flow state. Was my choice though, not mandated.

These days I do it for 8 hours or so, and not on weekends, other than weekend / weeknight research. This is remotely though, so it’s easy to get in the flow state.

In an office, forget about it. Those days are about team building, relationships and planning. I don’t expect to get much coding done on those days.

But if you’re tired, definitely take a break. If you can truly achieve a flow state 8 hours passes in what feels like 10 minutes. It’s such a cool and strange phenomenon.

But for it to work you have to be intentional. Mute slack, close email. Batch those at the end of the day if possible.

Nothing like the feeling of being super productive and getting tons of high quality, high leverage work done from the flow state.

I’m lucky in that my manager is very smart and “gets it”, because he’s been there too.

Re: Expecting programmers to problem solve for 8 hours is stupid

#56

Post by davidjnelson » Fri, Jul 05, 2019, 11:33 PM UTC

6gvONxR4sf7o wrote: post #29

There's a funny/weird dynamic with this. We all need to appear like we work as much as everyone else appears to. Looks like your teammate puts in 9 hours per day? Well you do too. Otherwise you'll look like a slacker, even though both of you get five or six hours of work done. If everyone did it, it'd be fine and you'd both get hours of time back to do anything else. What's weird is that this dynamic affects workplac…

It can be helpful in those situations to join a team you learned about from someone in your professional or friend network. That way you can ask questions without being penalized.

Re: Expecting programmers to problem solve for 8 hours is stupid

#57

Post by CawCawCaw » Sat, Jul 06, 2019, 7:53 AM UTC

Is that why programmers are also obligated to write emails and sit in meetings?

Re: Expecting programmers to problem solve for 8 hours is stupid

#58

Post by username90 » Sat, Jul 06, 2019, 8:30 AM UTC

The maths behind long workdays is pretty simple, you have as you say around 4 hours of productive hours per day, so why do companies want you to spend 8 hours in the office? Because the more free time you have the likelier it is that you will spend those productive hours at home doing hobbies! Therefore the goal of long work hours is to prevent you from having a life which could get in the way of work.

Or from another angle, a person who voluntarily works 45 hour weeks likely spends most of his productive hours at the office. A person who do 35 hour weeks likely spends most of his productive hours at home. A person who is forced to work 80 hour weeks will definitely spend most of his productive hours at the office since he has no time left for anything else. It might hurt his overall productivity, but it at least guarantees that the company gets his all.

Re: Expecting programmers to problem solve for 8 hours is stupid

#59

Post by remilouf » Sat, Jul 06, 2019, 8:45 AM UTC

Back in my days as an academic I would follow the same pattern every day: start working early from 7 till 10, take a long walk to the lab have a couple informal meetings with colleague, have lunch. Work there for a couple hours (my « available hours », run some errands or see a friend for coffee and work another couple hours. I have never been as productive as I was back then.

I don’t think this schedule would work for everyone but the general idea was: intense work for a short periods of time, take some time to talk with colleagues and go through meetings and then work again, with long breaks in between. That way I could manage 8 hours of productivity without burning out. And yes, sometimes I would get in flow and work for 12 hours straight without eating. But those days were more the exception than the rule. The point is I could have roughly 8 hours most days working this way.

In companies I’ve worked with I’ve always felt babysitted, as though I was unable to discipline myself when not watched all the time by managers. The truth is we don’t all work in the same way, and we are all reasonably interested in our job—-and if we’re not, sitting all day in the office is not going to change that. So why don’t we make room for everyone’s pattern while keeping some team time every day?

Re: Expecting programmers to problem solve for 8 hours is stupid

#60

Post by thirdsun » Sat, Jul 06, 2019, 9:46 AM UTC

bungie4 wrote: post #35

AnimalMuppet wrote: post #15

My first software manager said that the most you can get out of people is five hours of real work a day. She also said that programmers need to learn to tell when the most productive thing they can do is go look out the window.

30+ year programmer here. This is absolutely true. Some days you cause more damage then progress, forcing you to spend still more time correcting it. My supervisors understand that some days I'm not going touch code, instead I'll spend my time on education by keeping up with new tech, or, writing docs.. anything but talk with other co-workers distracting them

> My supervisors understand that some days I'm not going touch code, instead I'll spend my time on education by keeping up with new tech, or, writing docs.. anything but talk with other co-workers distracting them.

Couldn‘t agree more. There are days I spend exclusively reading and thinking. I regard keeping up on technology, thinking about potential approaches and solutions to various problems we’re facing as an essential part of my job. To an outsider that might look like a pretty relaxed work life, but this kind of preparation allows the actual execution, the thing that looks like work, to be the easiest part of a project.