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Forced Tech Transfers Are on the Rise in China, European Firms Say

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51–60 of 66 posts

Re: Forced Tech Transfers Are on the Rise in China, European Firms Say

#51

Framing detector is on. I have an issue with the word "forced". Nobody is forcing you with a gun to your head. Don't want to be "forced" - don't go do business in China.

> Nobody is forcing you with a gun to your head. Don't want to be "forced" - don't go do business in China.

What if the gun is economic?

Ok - I'm gonna say this is not my element or knowledge - so I'm pulling everything from my nether regions...

But what if the only option - because you need to increase your profit for your shareholders - is either this (play in China by their rules) or "go out of business"; that is, the "gun" here is the choice between staying solvent and maybe even profiting (short term), or shooting yourself in the head (figuratively)?

Do your shareholders care if the IP is transferred, so long as they make money? Maybe they don't understand that continually creating IP to transfer isn't a long-term plan, but maybe they don't care - they're just as parasitical, and when you're dried up, they've moved on or will move on to the next host?

You are right that nobody has to do business in China, but how do you expect them to do business elsewhere?

Let's say a company in Europe wants to manufacture widgets for sale - worldwide or at home, no matter. They have to build a factory to make those widgets, but to do that, they need quick, fast, and cheap access to say, plastics, screws, molds, electronic parts, PCB manufacture, and the list goes on and on and on.

Where do they get that? None of that exists nearby; maybe at one time it did, but not any more. Some or all of that stuff they can get in China, but now they have all the costs of getting the materials to them (import/export), then quality assurance (if they don't have someone in China checking for them), etc. At a certain point, they are now spending a ton of money as overhead just to get the parts to make the widgets, because that infrastructure is no longer available nearby. That cost will be passed along to the consumer - but as soon as that widget, or something similar, can be purchased cheaper closer to the source of those components, to eliminate those extra costs...well, they're not going to go with the local guy any longer.

You (that is, the government) could try to tariff their way out of it, but unless the country and citizens are willing to completely obliterate their environment to make manufacturing of those components as cheap as they are in China (and China, btw, is experiencing this, and I believe this is what is driving their investment in countries in Africa and elsewhere - they are essentially offshoring what was offshored to them; externalizing the environmental deficits to another country - maybe also cheaper labor?)...

I'm not going to belabor this any longer; I just think it's not as simple as saying "well, don't make stuff in China"...

Re: Forced Tech Transfers Are on the Rise in China, European Firms Say

#52

What’s kind of fascinating to me is that it’s the WSJ and FT reporting on this. Whereas if I go and browse a German paper, I get this: https://www.spiegel.de/wirtschaft/unternehmen/handelsstreit-...

Isn't IP transfer abundantly mentioned at the end of the article?

As a counterpoint, and instead of a point of fear.

I would almost offer a way to easily counter these "forced tech transfers," but with the tone taken here and elsewhere, I just sit back in disgust.

Re: Forced Tech Transfers Are on the Rise in China, European Firms Say

#53
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, before China, it was Japan. They dominated the 80s and a good chunk of the 90s. They still have a lead in markets such as cameras and are fairly competitive for technologies like Flash, which they actually invented. Samsung passed Toshiba a decade ago or so.

Don’t forget Taiwan and Korea.

Yeah, those have been displacing Japan along with China. I mentioned Samsung, but was mostly focusing on Japan as an example of a country whose star can and did dim, as a potential parallel for future China. It has taken longer than the few years the parent poster cited.

It's also worth noting that China still has a long way to go when you look at particular markets such as semiconductors, where export controls have slowed them down.

Re: Forced Tech Transfers Are on the Rise in China, European Firms Say

#54
post #29
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, they should put tariffs and sanctions, sounds quite reasonable. EU and US is the only economic factor in the world after all. Whos gonna China sell to after that? Africa? Russia? :D

Not sure if that was sarcasm, but surely there's South America, South and Southeast Asia, and Australia. Though, obviously not all these places are on good terms with China either.

Forget politics, let's just see how well Huawei's Androids sell outside without Play infrastructure. My bet that people will only choose China's consumer software offerings is if they have absolutely no choice.

Re: Forced Tech Transfers Are on the Rise in China, European Firms Say

#55
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No you can’t do that. The US and EU do not agree with this type of governance. It would set a bad precedence.

Given that having the source code to a system is a necessary part of modern security practice, it would actually be a very good precedent. This assumption that it's alright for communications infrastructure to rely on trusting black boxes as long as those black boxes were designed by "allied" companies is madness. It doesn't particularly matter whether the gear is made by Qualcomm, Cisco, or Huawei - it's all suspect…

Who is competent enough to review code? The governments? The crappy companies who the government would inevitably out source it to?

Re: Forced Tech Transfers Are on the Rise in China, European Firms Say

#56
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don’t forget Taiwan and Korea.

Yeah, those have been displacing Japan along with China. I mentioned Samsung, but was mostly focusing on Japan as an example of a country whose star can and did dim, as a potential parallel for future China. It has taken longer than the few years the parent poster cited. It's also worth noting that China still has a long way to go when you look at particular markets such as semiconductors, where export controls have…

Japan was displaced by them significantly in the 90s, then China displaced everyone mid 2000-2010.

Re: Forced Tech Transfers Are on the Rise in China, European Firms Say

#57
post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Given that having the source code to a system is a necessary part of modern security practice, it would actually be a very good precedent. This assumption that it's alright for communications infrastructure to rely on trusting black boxes as long as those black boxes were designed by "allied" companies is madness. It doesn't particularly matter whether the gear is made by Qualcomm, Cisco, or Huawei - it's all suspect…

Who is competent enough to review code? The governments? The crappy companies who the government would inevitably out source it to?

Anyone is better than no one...

Re: Forced Tech Transfers Are on the Rise in China, European Firms Say

#58
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is it about China that allowed them to so quickly internalize that high speed rail tech so they could compete with Siemens or Kawasaki? Meanwhile, in the US, our government is on the verge of shutdown every year because we have to raise some artificial debt ceiling to keep the federal government operating. Why are the Chinese so much more efficient? Americans, even progressive Americans, often think of governmen…

I think that greed is easier to manage when expanding into underserved & undercapitalized markets - in that environment most capital increase becomes an easily spread general improvement in life quality. When trying to balance inequality in well-capitalized, mature markets, you fundamentally have to trade one set of ownership against another on a much more frequent basis. To replace one set of capital investments wit…

So it’s like a new greenfield project vs dealing with legacy systems?

Re: Forced Tech Transfers Are on the Rise in China, European Firms Say

#59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is forcing a joint venture a bad deal? Isn’t that choice? You don’t have to do business in China. Some of my friends that are the most angry about this topic, will on the other hand, defend American companies who pay low wages saying no one is forcing the workers to take those low paying jobs.

Why is putting tariffs on imported Chinese goods a bad deal? Isn't that a choice? You don't have to sell your products in the U.S. Fine, China is a Sovereign country and can do what it wishes, but so is the U.S.

Was that meant to counter my argument? If so, you’re arguing a straw man. :)

Re: Forced Tech Transfers Are on the Rise in China, European Firms Say

#60

Framing detector is on. I have an issue with the word "forced". Nobody is forcing you with a gun to your head. Don't want to be "forced" - don't go do business in China.

That’s a disingenuous argument. eg. in 2019, nobody is ‘forced’ to give their data to Google/Apple/Facebook, but actually avoiding those companies entirely is extremely difficult/nigh impossible. Not engaging with China as a market or producer is practically impossible for many companies. When the choice is (a) give up your business by handing your IP over to Chinese competitors or (b) give up your business by losing…

Going forward China is going for broke... so though your comment is true, it's also true that China will try to best the West in everything as a final grasp at power as the West attempts to contain it. The result of these actions will determine this century. So right now is a very good time to figure out other places to get your products made. And stop trying to enter their market. They are capable and very motivated for control all of their market at the cost of the world.
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