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Forced Tech Transfers Are on the Rise in China, European Firms Say

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Re: Forced Tech Transfers Are on the Rise in China, European Firms Say

#31

Post by mindslight »

wil421 wrote: post #18
mrep wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or we should just tell China that if huawei wants to sell their 5g tech over here, they need to force tech transfer the 5g tech over to us to do so.

No you can’t do that. The US and EU do not agree with this type of governance. It would set a bad precedence.

Given that having the source code to a system is a necessary part of modern security practice, it would actually be a very good precedent.

This assumption that it's alright for communications infrastructure to rely on trusting black boxes as long as those black boxes were designed by "allied" companies is madness. It doesn't particularly matter whether the gear is made by Qualcomm, Cisco, or Huawei - it's all suspect.

The ultimate path forward is for mobile nodes to stop trusting the network, entirely. But that's a long row to hoe with regards to access authorization without leaking identifiers.

Re: Forced Tech Transfers Are on the Rise in China, European Firms Say

#32

Post by z2 »

tracer4201 wrote: post #27
z2 wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think a unique problem with China (and India too in the future) is that it is so big that the consequences of transfer materialize faster and and in bigger ways. Unlike smaller developing nations, China seems to be pretty good at learning and implementing, either as a matter of policy or through the sheer size of its markets and burgeoning professional class. Siemens and Kawasaki probably didn't expect China to int…

What is it about China that allowed them to so quickly internalize that high speed rail tech so they could compete with Siemens or Kawasaki? Meanwhile, in the US, our government is on the verge of shutdown every year because we have to raise some artificial debt ceiling to keep the federal government operating. Why are the Chinese so much more efficient? Americans, even progressive Americans, often think of governmen…

Not being an expert or qualified on this, my speculation is size, as in a reasonably-educated population and resources to support them, not necessarily government efficiency or competency. The size is what enables a complex supply chain and network that high tech companies need. You can transfer tech to a smaller country like Vietnam all you want, but it will be forced to specialize into only a few industries as it matures if it wants to keep an edge (like with Korea, Taiwan, etc.).

Edit: Maybe another thing is that value in technology is a mix of design and process. It's one thing to give the other side a blueprint, but it's another to force a joint-venture and teach people on the ground how to do things hands-on.

Re: Forced Tech Transfers Are on the Rise in China, European Firms Say

#33

Post by cameldrv »

tracer4201 wrote: post #26
cameldrv wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course technology transfer is good for the transferee. I would like a pony too. What the article is talking about is the forced joint-ventures. Do you want to open up a factory to make your product in China? In many industries, that is not legal. You have to find a Chinese partner to do a joint venture with. You can't just pick any company to do the joint venture with either. Practically it needs to be one that ha…

Why is forcing a joint venture a bad deal? Isn’t that choice? You don’t have to do business in China. Some of my friends that are the most angry about this topic, will on the other hand, defend American companies who pay low wages saying no one is forcing the workers to take those low paying jobs.

Why is putting tariffs on imported Chinese goods a bad deal? Isn't that a choice? You don't have to sell your products in the U.S.

Fine, China is a Sovereign country and can do what it wishes, but so is the U.S.

Re: Forced Tech Transfers Are on the Rise in China, European Firms Say

#34

Post by dillonmckay »

baybal2 wrote: post #7

Had a conversation recently about all that. People ask if the industry will wrap up and move from China. I ask them in response: where would they run away to? Vietnam? Vietnam's entire light industry output is like of one Dongguan's district. India has a lot of workforce, tons of it, but the entire light industry ecosystem has to be built from scratch, or brought along with you. They can't run away.

Chinese entrepreneurs have been opening factories in Africa, actually.

Relevant podcast:

https://hbr.org/ideacast/2017/11/the-hardscrabble-business-o...

Re: Forced Tech Transfers Are on the Rise in China, European Firms Say

#35

Post by _lbaq »

baybal2 wrote: post #7

Had a conversation recently about all that. People ask if the industry will wrap up and move from China. I ask them in response: where would they run away to? Vietnam? Vietnam's entire light industry output is like of one Dongguan's district. India has a lot of workforce, tons of it, but the entire light industry ecosystem has to be built from scratch, or brought along with you. They can't run away.

They can’t run away, but, automation will make millions unemployed, that is almost a worse problem, none to blame !

Re: Forced Tech Transfers Are on the Rise in China, European Firms Say

#36

Post by CogitoCogito »

zhongjiewu wrote: post #13
perfunctory wrote: post #5

Framing detector is on. I have an issue with the word "forced". Nobody is forcing you with a gun to your head. Don't want to be "forced" - don't go do business in China.

Ironically, there are aircraft carriers moving around the oceans forcing some countries regarding some agenda.

> Ironically, there are aircraft carriers moving around the oceans forcing some countries regarding some agenda.

What irony are you referencing specifically? The United States' usage of carriers to threaten the PRC? The PRC's usage of carriers to threaten the ROC? Some other countries?

Re: Forced Tech Transfers Are on the Rise in China, European Firms Say

#37

Post by dv_dt »

Epitome of lemming syndrome: OMG we have to setup shop in China so we can produce goods more cheaply. But if we do we're forced to give up the tech. Can we just not do that? But all our competitors are going to do it.

Maybe invest in another nation or continent.

Re: Forced Tech Transfers Are on the Rise in China, European Firms Say

#38

Post by mistermann »

godzillabrennus wrote: post #3
amluto wrote: post #2

I frequently think that the China is not actually the bad guy here. To me, tech transfer sounds like a good business practice. If I were going to spend billions of dollars buying something, I would seriously consider demanding the IP and know-how to make more of it myself in the future. That way I would have some assurance that my purchase wouldn’t become unsupported and this worthless and that I won’t get price-gaug…

It removes much of the incentive to build new tech if you have to turn it over and let someone steal it. I wouldn’t go into China with any proprietary tech as a foreigner.

> I wouldn’t go into China with any proprietary tech as a foreigner.

How about if you didn't own the company outright but were only a senior executive, and your pay was directly linked to YOY profit increases, ignoring the risk of having that technology stolen and used against you 5-10 years down the road?

Re: Forced Tech Transfers Are on the Rise in China, European Firms Say

#39

Post by seanmcdirmid »

the-rc wrote: post #28
seanmcdirmid wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If negative pressure is sustained long enough, alternatives will be developed. How long has China held a dominant position in electronics assembly? Less than 20 years...and that would be generous. So things can change, definitely not overnight, but in a few years.

Well, before China, it was Japan. They dominated the 80s and a good chunk of the 90s. They still have a lead in markets such as cameras and are fairly competitive for technologies like Flash, which they actually invented. Samsung passed Toshiba a decade ago or so.

Don’t forget Taiwan and Korea.

Re: Forced Tech Transfers Are on the Rise in China, European Firms Say

#40

Post by mistermann »

tracer4201 wrote: post #27
z2 wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think a unique problem with China (and India too in the future) is that it is so big that the consequences of transfer materialize faster and and in bigger ways. Unlike smaller developing nations, China seems to be pretty good at learning and implementing, either as a matter of policy or through the sheer size of its markets and burgeoning professional class. Siemens and Kawasaki probably didn't expect China to int…

What is it about China that allowed them to so quickly internalize that high speed rail tech so they could compete with Siemens or Kawasaki? Meanwhile, in the US, our government is on the verge of shutdown every year because we have to raise some artificial debt ceiling to keep the federal government operating. Why are the Chinese so much more efficient? Americans, even progressive Americans, often think of governmen…

I would say the difference is that Chinese political leaders are very concerned with improving their country while lining their own pockets, while American politicians are mostly concerned with lining their own pockets. Sure, they say all the right words to inspire people and get re-elected, but it's 90% about the $$$ for them personally.
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