Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from landlords • Hacker News Board

Re: Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from landlords

#51

Post by NeedMoreTea » Fri, May 10, 2019, 10:45 AM UTC

Y_Y wrote: post #5

Most house locks are trivial to pick in about 30 seconds, and what I've seen of "smart" locks isn't much better. I think if you were really serious about preventing intruders (rather than discouraging opportunism) you need alarms and cameras and someone with a big stick.

Aren't security locks common over there?

The typical night latch (Yale lock) is super easy to pick, but it wouldn't be easy to get UK insurance without a 5 or 7 lever Chubb lock, or one of the newer security locks. So pretty much everywhere has one - and quite often both. Newer doors tend to have multiple bolts in three places, operated by the single security key.

Just a night latch might be used for internal doors, or a garden shed.

Re: Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from landlords

#52

Post by cr1895 » Fri, May 10, 2019, 10:45 AM UTC

lqet wrote: post #30

adwww wrote: post #22

When I was last renting (in the UK) I changed my locks the day I moved in, then swapped them back to the original cylinders when I left. I thought it was pretty good practice not to have a door with an unknown number of previous tennants, cleaners, letting agents, landlords etc with access.

Is this legal? At least here in Germany, the apartment owner is allowed to enter your apartment using his key in emergency situations. [0] I can imagine that you can be held liable if, for example, a fire breaks out in your apartment, the apartment owner notices it, tries to enter your apartment to extinguish it, cannot enter because of changed lock, and the building burns down. [0] as others have mentioned below, th…

My rental contract in the Netherlands forbids it, but at one time I discussed it with a lawyer and it's not an enforceable clause. Eventually I had to get the lock replaced and I have no intention of giving the property company a key.

>the apartment owner notices it, tries to enter your apartment to extinguish it, cannot enter because of changed lock, and the building burns down.

The fire department/emergency services would absolutely be allowed to (force) enter...why should the landlord be the savior? Perhaps it's different in Germany.

Re: Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from landlords

#53

Post by alphager » Fri, May 10, 2019, 10:47 AM UTC

lqet wrote: post #30

adwww wrote: post #22

When I was last renting (in the UK) I changed my locks the day I moved in, then swapped them back to the original cylinders when I left. I thought it was pretty good practice not to have a door with an unknown number of previous tennants, cleaners, letting agents, landlords etc with access.

Is this legal? At least here in Germany, the apartment owner is allowed to enter your apartment using his key in emergency situations. [0] I can imagine that you can be held liable if, for example, a fire breaks out in your apartment, the apartment owner notices it, tries to enter your apartment to extinguish it, cannot enter because of changed lock, and the building burns down. [0] as others have mentioned below, th…

It is completely legal to change the locks as a tenant in Germany: https://www.n-tv.de/ratgeber/Darf-der-Mieter-das-Tuerschloss...

Re: Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from landlords

#54

Post by tempguy9999 » Fri, May 10, 2019, 10:47 AM UTC

CaptainZapp wrote: post #49

tempguy9999 wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't have a smartphone and I doubt I'll ever choose to get one. I have a dumb phone and mainly leave that at home. Anybody who wants me can leave a message and wait for a callback. Seems to work well for past 20 years. I don't have a fancy one for the very reasons of tracking, loss of privacy/data collection and above all for this type of use, and what the parent didn't mention, I do not trust tech even slightly,…

(NB cost of a spare key ~£5). Depends on the key, really. Some keys herearound can be very expensive to replace and require written authorization by the landlord. With most keys you can't waltz into Mister Minit and have them pull a copy.

> require written authorization by the landlord

How are they going to even know?

> ...you can't waltz into...

I've never come across a key that couldn't be duplicated with a quick £5 waltz. IME only I suppose.

Re: Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from landlords

#55

Post by CaptainZapp » Fri, May 10, 2019, 10:54 AM UTC

tempguy9999 wrote: post #54

CaptainZapp wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

(NB cost of a spare key ~£5). Depends on the key, really. Some keys herearound can be very expensive to replace and require written authorization by the landlord. With most keys you can't waltz into Mister Minit and have them pull a copy.

> require written authorization by the landlord How are they going to even know? > ...you can't waltz into... I've never come across a key that couldn't be duplicated with a quick £5 waltz. IME only I suppose.

For example : [1] & [2]

Only the entity ordring the locks is authorized to have additional keys made. And it's pretty heavily enforced by the manufacturers and distibuters.

Copies are also more than 5 quid.

[1] https://www.dormakaba.com/hr-hr/proizvodi/proizvodi/mechanic...

[2] https://www.assaabloy.ch/en/local/switzerland/landingpage/as...

Edited to add : While the web pages talk pretty much about smart locks, both manufacturers offer purely mechanical locks (or hybrids), which cannot be copied easily.

Re: Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from landlords

#56

Post by Faaak » Fri, May 10, 2019, 10:54 AM UTC

lqet wrote: post #30

adwww wrote: post #22

When I was last renting (in the UK) I changed my locks the day I moved in, then swapped them back to the original cylinders when I left. I thought it was pretty good practice not to have a door with an unknown number of previous tennants, cleaners, letting agents, landlords etc with access.

Is this legal? At least here in Germany, the apartment owner is allowed to enter your apartment using his key in emergency situations. [0] I can imagine that you can be held liable if, for example, a fire breaks out in your apartment, the apartment owner notices it, tries to enter your apartment to extinguish it, cannot enter because of changed lock, and the building burns down. [0] as others have mentioned below, th…

If there's an emergency, you kick the door.

If it's not an emergency, then you don't need to enter the apartment without the tenant.

Re: Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from landlords

#57

Post by Faaak » Fri, May 10, 2019, 10:56 AM UTC

CaptainZapp wrote: post #48

pjc50 wrote: post #23

The comments seem to be missing the two key aspects: accessibility and surveillance. The smart lock requires you to have a charged, working smartphone that you can use in order to get into your own apartment. One of the claimants is 93 and lacks the manual dexterity to do that. On top of that, smart locks can report when you enter and exit your home to the landlord; and, if under the landlord control, can provide oth…

I don't know what the tenancy law is in NY, but in the UK this is supposed to require the permission of the tenant except in an emergency. I can't speak for America or NY, but Switzerland has exactly the same tenancy law. The landlord must announce a visit to the appartment like 48 hours in advance an he cannot abuse the privilege. Essentially you "own" the rented appartment during your tennancy. Emergencies (i.e. a…

Exactly. A "bail" is you compensating the landlord for a resource they lend you. You can do (almost) anything you want in your rented house.. at the only condition that you give it back as it was before (minus normal deterioration).

If there's an emergency, the fire services will kick the door.

Re: Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from landlords

#58

Post by sjtgraham » Fri, May 10, 2019, 10:57 AM UTC

_delirium wrote: post #43

lqet wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is this legal? At least here in Germany, the apartment owner is allowed to enter your apartment using his key in emergency situations. [0] I can imagine that you can be held liable if, for example, a fire breaks out in your apartment, the apartment owner notices it, tries to enter your apartment to extinguish it, cannot enter because of changed lock, and the building burns down. [0] as others have mentioned below, th…

It's legal in the UK for a tenant to change the locks, and there's also no law requiring them to provide the landlord a copy of the key. You do have to allow the landlord in for certain reasons (like maintenance) with advance notice, but you can do that by just being home and letting them in yourself. However, the letting contract might prohibit it, and I think commonly does. It's not a right of the tenant to be able…

Tenants have common law "exclusive possession" and "right to quiet enjoyment" in a UK residential AST. Landlord's presence must be with tenant's consent, it is trespass and possibly an "unlawful eviction" offence otherwise. Landlord don't even have a right of entry to comply with their own statutory requirements, e.g. gas safety check. The only exception is in an "emergency", e.g. a fire.

Re: Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from landlords

#59

Post by Faaak » Fri, May 10, 2019, 10:58 AM UTC

gmueckl wrote: post #46

sc11 wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the ability to immediately remove previous tenants access to the home This doesn't really require a smart lock. In Germany it's common to replace the lock immediately once you rent a place and put the original lock back in when you move out. This prevents the landlord, previous tenants and whoever else might still have keys from entering without your permission.

Unless the landlord does it, this is actually illegal as far as I know. The locks are property of the landlord and they have a right to enter the apartment under certain circumstances (previously announced visit, danger, ...).

No it is not. The locks are the property of the landlord, but their usage is not. You can change the locks at the only condition that you put them back afterwards.

Re: Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from landlords

#60

Post by delinka » Fri, May 10, 2019, 10:58 AM UTC

tempguy9999 wrote: post #54

CaptainZapp wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

(NB cost of a spare key ~£5). Depends on the key, really. Some keys herearound can be very expensive to replace and require written authorization by the landlord. With most keys you can't waltz into Mister Minit and have them pull a copy.

> require written authorization by the landlord How are they going to even know? > ...you can't waltz into... I've never come across a key that couldn't be duplicated with a quick £5 waltz. IME only I suppose.

>How are they going to even know?

Because it's a non-standard key with print on it: "Property of X, not to be copied without permission" and because it's a non-standard key, to even get the blanks requires knowing whom to ask for permission to make copies.

Think something like US Post Office box keys, or bank safe deposit keys.