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Amazon Quits China Market

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Re: Amazon Quits China Market

#51

Post by product50 »

paganel wrote: post #45
product50 wrote: post #32

Amazon has literally won everywhere else in the world. But in China they were slow at execution? Does this read right to you? Or maybe there is a regulatory angle which no one is talking about because...China.

> Amazon has literally won everywhere else in the world I've mentioned it in another comment, too, but Amazon is not present in my Eastern European country (Romania), where Alibaba beats them by a large margin (even though they're also not officially launched here). I've just done a quick search and it seems Amazon is not winning it in Russia either, nor in Ukraine, to say nothing of India. As such, to say that they…

Dude do some research. They are winning or close to winning in India, South East Asia, Western Europe, Australia, US, Dubai etc.

Re: Amazon Quits China Market

#52

Post by paganel »

pdimitar wrote: post #46
paganel wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> why Alibaba etc aren’t bigger in US or Europe given their far more aggressive take on offering huge catelog at lower prices with ultrafast delivery. Alibaba is pretty big here in Romania. One could say that that happens because Amazon isn't officially present on the market, which is true, but neither Alibaba is officially launched, people use it because the stuff on their website is really, really cheap and the cos…

As a Bulgarian, that's very surprising to read! What is the average delivery in days when shopping from Alibaba? Do you get huge delivery fees akin to Amazon and eBay? I'm pretty unhappy with Amazon and eBay for shopping in Bulgaria and I'm considering alternatives.

> What is the average delivery in days when shopping from Alibaba?

It's not for the same-day delivery crowd, that's for sure, afaik it's from a few days to a week or two. But, like I said, the price is sometimes so low that for a lot of people it's worth it.

> Do you get huge delivery fees akin to Amazon and eBay?

Not as far as I know. There used to be a loophole (or maybe the customs people were too lazy to enforce the law) where you didn't pay VAT for purchases that were not that high but that has changed lately, which added approximately 20% to the costs. Even so, because the prices are comparatively speaking so low it doesn't make that much of a difference.

Of course, I wouldn't advise trying to purchase any branded things or luxury stuff from Alibaba but you can find pretty nice things in there at impossible to beat prices if you don't care that much about the label.

Re: Amazon Quits China Market

#53

Post by xj9 »

javajosh wrote: post #23
meddlepal wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which is still a better starting point than nothing. On one hand it sucks that China is abusing its position in the global market, but on the other hand I am really not shedding any tears for greedy corporate America getting screwed for once.

Sadly, it's not just greedy "corpo 'merka" getting screwed. Plenty of scrappy software startups with stars in their eyes have services and products that would really improve Chinese lives, but can't or won't operate in-country because it is entirely too much risk.

my impression is that this is exactly what China wants. what do they have to gain from allowing american companies into their market without some hurdles? it is far more beneficial to china to encourage local business development.

Re: Amazon Quits China Market

#54

Post by paganel »

product50 wrote: post #51
paganel wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Amazon has literally won everywhere else in the world I've mentioned it in another comment, too, but Amazon is not present in my Eastern European country (Romania), where Alibaba beats them by a large margin (even though they're also not officially launched here). I've just done a quick search and it seems Amazon is not winning it in Russia either, nor in Ukraine, to say nothing of India. As such, to say that they…

Dude do some research. They are winning or close to winning in India, South East Asia, Western Europe, Australia, US, Dubai etc.

I'm really surprised about India, that's news to me, I knew about the US and Western Europe situation but that doesn't equate to the rest of the whole world, as I was saying. I have to say that I'm a little skeptical about your claim of them dominating SE Asia, as a quick search drove me to this article from September 2018 [1] where it says that they're about to enter the market in Indonesia (which dwarfs Australia in terms of future potential) after Alibaba had done the same thing.

The expected investment also doesn't match Alibaba's, the Chinese have apparently come up with $1.1 billion while Amazon is coming with only half of that value, i.e. $600 million. But maybe they're doing better in Thailand or Vietnam.

[1] https://www.entrepreneur.com/article/320410

Re: Amazon Quits China Market

#55

Post by baybal2 »

ConfusedDog wrote: post #31
contingencies wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Never used z.cn but saw a few neighbours ordering from them in Shenzhen. Probably recent tech books in English I guess. I did try AWS in China and it was absolutely shocking . Clearly they never prioritized China and the inevitable happened. I run a business in China, it's not easy but it's interesting.

I heard AWS works in China, just not sure how well. Considering the GFW, I wouldn't have chosen it for projects serving Chinese users. Likely same consumer mentality is also playing a part against Amazon.cn and other foreign tech giants.

A local company bought a franchise for AWS from Amazon in China

Re: Amazon Quits China Market

#56

Post by [deleted] »

sytelus wrote: post #30
cletus wrote: post #3

This is why I don't get why companies--tech giants in particular--kowtow to China in the hopes of getting access to the Chinese market. It will never happen. At least, it won't be open access. You'll have to play by Chinese rules (ie integration with the Great Firewall, storing data in China, probably integration with social credit and so on). Worse, there might be (basically forced) "IP transfer". Even after all tha…

Perhaps you didn’t read the article. This has nothing to with government interference. Local players in China are very strong with likes of Alibaba doing massive shopping festivals that easily rivals Thanksgiving. Two day delivery is China is considered slow and nothing to be proud about. On the top of this, it looks there were control issues where leaders at Amazon.cn weren’t empowered to make decisions. I actually…

[deleted]

Re: Amazon Quits China Market

#57

Post by pdimitar »

paganel wrote: post #52
pdimitar wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a Bulgarian, that's very surprising to read! What is the average delivery in days when shopping from Alibaba? Do you get huge delivery fees akin to Amazon and eBay? I'm pretty unhappy with Amazon and eBay for shopping in Bulgaria and I'm considering alternatives.

> What is the average delivery in days when shopping from Alibaba? It's not for the same-day delivery crowd, that's for sure, afaik it's from a few days to a week or two. But, like I said, the price is sometimes so low that for a lot of people it's worth it. > Do you get huge delivery fees akin to Amazon and eBay? Not as far as I know. There used to be a loophole (or maybe the customs people were too lazy to enforce…

Thanks a lot.

I wouldn't go for almost any online store if I look up luxury items anyway. ;)

But when you want to get 4 cables of this kind, 2 cables of that other kind, 3 LED arrays, and 2 books -- which total $35 -- it feels pretty awful to actually have to pay about $65 due to delivery fees and whatnot.

So I am thinking that for all those smaller purchases I'll just go for Alibaba.

(BTW I also noticed our customs caught up on lower-cost items' VAT and it's not pleasant.)

Appreciate the feedback.

Re: Amazon Quits China Market

#58

Post by baybal2 »

OrgNet wrote: post #42
StopHammoTime wrote: post #17

Amazon's model has been a "central place for everything". Culturally, China seems to be more open to having ten million places to get their specific things they need. Having a central online store is not a big deal for them.

Do they have the equivalent to a shopping mall that allows them to easily find smaller online stores?

That's how Taobao worked from day 1

Re: Amazon Quits China Market

#59

Post by dis-sys »

sytelus wrote: post #30
cletus wrote: post #3

This is why I don't get why companies--tech giants in particular--kowtow to China in the hopes of getting access to the Chinese market. It will never happen. At least, it won't be open access. You'll have to play by Chinese rules (ie integration with the Great Firewall, storing data in China, probably integration with social credit and so on). Worse, there might be (basically forced) "IP transfer". Even after all tha…

Perhaps you didn’t read the article. This has nothing to with government interference. Local players in China are very strong with likes of Alibaba doing massive shopping festivals that easily rivals Thanksgiving. Two day delivery is China is considered slow and nothing to be proud about. On the top of this, it looks there were control issues where leaders at Amazon.cn weren’t empowered to make decisions. I actually…

> why Alibaba etc aren’t bigger in US or Europe given their far more aggressive take on offering huge catelog at lower prices with ultrafast delivery.

Because jd.com will never get the same 3 million delivery guys working 80 hours a week at around USD $1,000/month.

Re: Amazon Quits China Market

#60

Post by baybal2 »

cromwellian wrote: post #25
echan00 wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was just about to re-quote this. If you have lived in China before you would understand and agree that two days (the Amazon Prime gold standard) is considered too slow in China.

But if you're lived in China and used JD or other delivery companies, you have to agree that the delivery fee is insanely cheap for same-day delivery, and that this gig work seems on borrowed time, the costs are going to increase, and the question is, will JD be able to keep this up? Amazon is using proven multi-decade logistics companies for delivery, so it's pretty certain their internal cost structures are rationa…

Alibaba outsourced logistics to a big extend. There is their own Cainiao, but it is just a franchise front for small delivery companies.

They pay market rate, and that's nothing unreal when most Chinese live in densely built up apartment blocks (a big difference from USA)

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