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The Streets Were Never Free. Congestion Pricing Finally Makes That Plain

nytimes.com

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Re: The Streets Were Never Free. Congestion Pricing Finally Makes That Plain

#51

Post by the_gastropod »

Jorge1o1 wrote: post #31

The streets were never free. We paid for it with our tax money. (Not to mention our 22 trillion dollar public debt) I don’t think people expect streets to be free in the same way you don’t expect the police department to be free, the fire department to be free, public schools, etc. In any case, my point is, we paid for the streets with our tax money and our debt, so don’t masquerade this as some kind of “economic rec…

Bear in mind only ~45% of NYC residents own cars. Yet, we all pay taxes to pay for maintaining their infrastructure.

Everyone paying taxes to support some is fine when that thing is beneficial to society at large (e.g., public education, fire departments, welfare, etc.) I don't think driving counts as an activity that should be subsidized by the taxpayer.

Re: The Streets Were Never Free. Congestion Pricing Finally Makes That Plain

#53

Post by hourislate »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #41
Jorge1o1 wrote: post #31

The streets were never free. We paid for it with our tax money. (Not to mention our 22 trillion dollar public debt) I don’t think people expect streets to be free in the same way you don’t expect the police department to be free, the fire department to be free, public schools, etc. In any case, my point is, we paid for the streets with our tax money and our debt, so don’t masquerade this as some kind of “economic rec…

> don’t masquerade this as some kind of “economic reckoning” In New York, low-income New Yorkers who own a car (or live in the zone) will be eligible for a waiver [1]. People with disabilities, too, will probably be eligible for a waiver. (Some carve-outs are still being pinned down.) Taxis, Ubers, trucks and cars owned by people who opt to pay hundreds of dollars a month in parking are who will be taxed. Given the u…

How do people feel on a congestion fee for sidewalks. Too many people on sidewalks in NYC making them almost unusable. If you want to walk on a sidewalk during the busiest times you should pay a congestion fee. Why would we stop at just roads?

Re: The Streets Were Never Free. Congestion Pricing Finally Makes That Plain

#54

Post by CalRobert »

Jorge1o1 wrote: post #31

The streets were never free. We paid for it with our tax money. (Not to mention our 22 trillion dollar public debt) I don’t think people expect streets to be free in the same way you don’t expect the police department to be free, the fire department to be free, public schools, etc. In any case, my point is, we paid for the streets with our tax money and our debt, so don’t masquerade this as some kind of “economic rec…

OK, how about "it's a way to make sure people who need the road most are the ones who get to use it"

Kind of how parking meters are FANTASTIC because they mean I can finally get a damn space for the rare occasion when I rent a van or car and need to park in front of my flat. I just wish they'd raise prices on my street because it's still tough sometimes.

Re: The Streets Were Never Free. Congestion Pricing Finally Makes That Plain

#55

Post by btbuildem »

dannyw wrote: post #3

It's sad to see congestion pricing in America. I had hoped that the long-lived cultural freedom of driving would keep it at bay for longer, but I guess not anymore. I live in Sydney. It takes a 45 minute drive to visit a family member, who is sick and homebound. To do so in the shortest and least congested route, I must pay 3 tolls: $14.85 total, one way; $30 dollars a trip. Public transport is not a suitable option.…

On the contrary, congestion pricing cannot come soon enough. Something needs to counter the rampant culture of entitlement that characterizes the majority of drivers. We've rationalized tens of thousands of deaths annually as "this is how it is". We've accepted the gradual and seemingly inevitable decline of quality of our environment (air and noise to mention the obvious ones). The costs have been distributed unfairly across all, and it is time to make it EXPENSIVE to wheel about.

Re: The Streets Were Never Free. Congestion Pricing Finally Makes That Plain

#56

Post by smnrchrds »

ramraj07 wrote: post #45
jiggliemon wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Any new money for public spending is typically used to pay down the ballooning public pension liabilities. And if it doesn’t go towards pensions, it’s diverted away to other welfare projects, or education. Point is these new funds won’t make transportation better in any significant way.

The proposed budget explicitly says this money will go towards the MTA.

Does it truly do? Or does it go towards MTA the same way lottery and gambling revenue goes towards education budget, i.e. not really except as an accounting trick?

Re: The Streets Were Never Free. Congestion Pricing Finally Makes That Plain

#57

Post by ramraj07 »

dannyw wrote: post #3

It's sad to see congestion pricing in America. I had hoped that the long-lived cultural freedom of driving would keep it at bay for longer, but I guess not anymore. I live in Sydney. It takes a 45 minute drive to visit a family member, who is sick and homebound. To do so in the shortest and least congested route, I must pay 3 tolls: $14.85 total, one way; $30 dollars a trip. Public transport is not a suitable option.…

So your family member is across the city, I'm assuming there will be a minimum amount of time that you would take to visit them even if there was no traffic. Presumably, when you originally made whatever living arrangements you are in now, you factored that minimum time and was probably okay with that. That is, you essentially curbed your own freedom of movement based on some physical limits and other priorities.

Presumably, that limit is a function of the way the roads were designed, and a straight road directly from your apartment to your loved ones would have been faster. Though you probably didn't complain then how the city wasn't designed to enable your freedom of movement.

How is this new congestion pricing any different? Did it discriminate against you personally in any way? In fact, it probably reduced your commute time, by making you pay more. Im guessing that Sydney probably has some assistance for people who actually can't afford this price, which you probably didn't qualify for (guessing since you're here at HN), so I'm really struggling to sympathize with your argument of how it curbs your freedom of movement (unless you're poor and there's no assistance from the government for you).

We all have many freedoms but almost none of them are free. In fact they all come at great costs. 30 dollars doesn't actually sound that high all things considered.

Re: The Streets Were Never Free. Congestion Pricing Finally Makes That Plain

#58

Post by zacharyautin11 »

Jorge1o1 wrote: post #31

The streets were never free. We paid for it with our tax money. (Not to mention our 22 trillion dollar public debt) I don’t think people expect streets to be free in the same way you don’t expect the police department to be free, the fire department to be free, public schools, etc. In any case, my point is, we paid for the streets with our tax money and our debt, so don’t masquerade this as some kind of “economic rec…

You missed the point. The article shows the reality that direct costs to consumer would have resulted in fewer auto sales. Instead we have sprawl and more cars than children.

Re: The Streets Were Never Free. Congestion Pricing Finally Makes That Plain

#59

Post by JumpCrisscross »

hourislate wrote: post #53
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> don’t masquerade this as some kind of “economic reckoning” In New York, low-income New Yorkers who own a car (or live in the zone) will be eligible for a waiver [1]. People with disabilities, too, will probably be eligible for a waiver. (Some carve-outs are still being pinned down.) Taxis, Ubers, trucks and cars owned by people who opt to pay hundreds of dollars a month in parking are who will be taxed. Given the u…

How do people feel on a congestion fee for sidewalks. Too many people on sidewalks in NYC making them almost unusable. If you want to walk on a sidewalk during the busiest times you should pay a congestion fee. Why would we stop at just roads?

> Too many people on sidewalks in NYC making them almost unusable

One, pedestrian congestion doesn't exhibit traffic congestion's negative externalities. (You have to get to trampling-risk densities before that occurs.)

Two, "sidewalk passes" have no precedent. Congestion pricing has lots of precedent [1].

Three, this is a problem getting attention [2]. America has spent decades throwing lanes at traffic. Not all of that was a waste. Similar effort has yet to broadly benefit pedestrians.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Congestion_pricing

[2] https://www.thevillager.com/2019/04/grassroots-group-calls-f...

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