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WhatsApp co-founder accuses Facebook of trading privacy for revenue

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Re: WhatsApp co-founder accuses Facebook of trading privacy for revenue

#51
post #43

I remember his words from an interview "I sold the privacy of my users for a huge profit. I made a decision that compromised my principles, and I must live with that every day." This guy should have his own character in the next season of Silicon Valley series. Give your billions to the poor and move on you poor guy

> Give your billions to the poor and move on you poor guy

How exactly is gonna help the people and the guy?

It's not that people are not gonna be tracked by tech giants after he donates his billions or something.

Re: WhatsApp co-founder accuses Facebook of trading privacy for revenue

#52
post #44

With the proposed 1$/yr/user it is going to take around 19 years to become profitable (with 1bn paid users). Facebook obviously wants a return earlier. The founder did take those billions, so not sure what he was expecting to happen, ads looks like the only business model to turn profit quickly in this sort of business. Besides, there are so many people using WhatsApp in developing countries that wouldn't pay if they…

I never understand why ads and subscription fee needs to be an exclusive or for how the big players monetize. I'd happily give Google $5/month for Gmail, $10/month for YouTube (I already do), $10/month for google search etc or $40/month for their complete package if they remove ads and respect privacy then. It's less than other "semi-essential" services I have to use like my ISP or car and if they make more than that…

If you can afford $40/month to use Google, then they can make much more than that simply showing you ads.

Re: WhatsApp co-founder accuses Facebook of trading privacy for revenue

#53
post #43

I remember his words from an interview "I sold the privacy of my users for a huge profit. I made a decision that compromised my principles, and I must live with that every day." This guy should have his own character in the next season of Silicon Valley series. Give your billions to the poor and move on you poor guy

> Give your billions to the poor and move on you poor guy How exactly is gonna help the people and the guy? It's not that people are not gonna be tracked by tech giants after he donates his billions or something.

Honestly, I kind of agree. If he feels so bad about it, donate the money somewhere. Right now, he is having his cake and eating it too.

Re: WhatsApp co-founder accuses Facebook of trading privacy for revenue

#54

I just want to say, if I were in his position, I would also trade my company for sweet millions of dollars. But at least I would not constantly call out the people I sold it to, as if my words had any meaning at that point. Also, it's frustrating to me, to see how it's seemingly impossible to care about the users AND have enough users bringing in revenue at the same time so that you are never in a position where big…

Not millions, BILLIONS. The gulf between the two is wide. If you could count 1 number every second you could count to a million in ~30 days. It would take you 30 years to count to a billion.

Re: WhatsApp co-founder accuses Facebook of trading privacy for revenue

#55
post #50
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see nothing hypocritical about good people taking payment from evil people. “Payment” means that the resources of the payer go down, and the resources of the payee go up. Now Facebook have less money that they can use to influence the world in stupid/evil ways, and the WhatsApp founders have more money they can use to influence the world in good ways. And, in exchange, since Facebook now owns the service of WhatsAp…

> Now Facebook have less money that they can use to influence the world in stupid/evil ways, and the WhatsApp founders have more money they can use to influence the world in good ways. Correct. > since Facebook now owns the service of WhatsApp, they have the adopted duty of popularizing it—a service that inherently resists the kind of centralized analytical approaches Facebook uses to make money There's nothing inher…

Not inherently decentralized, no. But it’s “inherently” E2E-encrypted, in the sense that that’s why people (or, a large segment of people) use the app. If it doesn’t do that, people will stop using it.

Maybe “inherently” is the wrong word. Is “Diet Coke” inherently a diet drink? That’s the idea I’m trying to get at here: that people wouldn’t buy a “Diet Coke” that isn’t made with a sugar substitute, because then it wouldn’t be “Diet” any more, and that’s why people were drinking it in the first place.

Re: WhatsApp co-founder accuses Facebook of trading privacy for revenue

#57
post #19
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see nothing hypocritical about good people taking payment from evil people. “Payment” means that the resources of the payer go down, and the resources of the payee go up. Now Facebook have less money that they can use to influence the world in stupid/evil ways, and the WhatsApp founders have more money they can use to influence the world in good ways. And, in exchange, since Facebook now owns the service of WhatsAp…

It really doesn't though. Facebook paid for WhatsApp because it was worth more to them than money. Their resources and influence have increased .

If there is an “evil” person/organization, that usually means that they have one or more terminal preferences that you would think of as evil. But they also probably have non-evil terminal preferences as well. And they’re just as likely to spend money to satisfy their non-evil terminal preferences as their evil ones.

Any transaction with an evil person/organization, that satisfies their non-evil terminal preferences, should be encouraged, because you’re decreasing the resources they have available to them to do evil with, without causing evil to happen.

Facebook bought WhatsApp because it increases the size of their social graph, sure. But if I consider “making statistical associations between people” a morally-neutral act, and “actively spying on the particular actions of individuals” to be an evil act, then “feeding” Facebook the WhatsApp social graph was, from my perspective, a setback on the pace of the evil they were doing. In an alternative world where they didn’t buy WhatsApp but instead just outcompeted it with Messenger and everyone switched from WhatsApp to Messenger, Facebook would have done more evil by spying on conversations that—in this world—it didn’t get to spy on, because they occurred in the interim period where they owned WhatsApp but hadn’t fully wiretapped it yet.

Sure, it will finish digesting WhatsApp and change it into something that allows them to spy on people. In the meantime, the WhatsApp founders are free of working for WhatsApp; and so could, theoretically, just build (or, more easily, invest in the creation of) another secure social network. And then trust people to just decide to abandon WhatsApp for its Facebook-owned-ness (like they’re already abandoning Messenger for its Facebook-owned-ness) and switch to it.

It’s a cycle: Facebook will probably make every successive competitor secure-chat network company an offer they can’t refuse, and absorb them. But this results in less evil being done to people than a world where those networks never existed in the first place; and, in the process, Facebook’s total revenue and market share (even including those acquisitions!) are shrinking, because they shed huge amounts of money for each acquisition, and the time they spend “digesting” these companies is time their employees have to spend doing redundant work—making a beach-head into data-legibility of these user-bases, rather than actively exploiting the data-legibility of the users they’ve got. In other words, these acquisitions are revenue-negative for the first year or two, because they can’t immediately shove their hooks in, and so there’s nothing there to immediately sell to advertisers.

The Roman Empire collapsed because it got too big and didn’t have its distant member states under its control. It couldn’t tax them, or use them as soldiers in its wars. In theory, you could have made it collapse faster, by accelerating the rate at which it acquired these loosely-held fringe member states.

Or, for another analogy: your liver only has so much garbage it can process from your body at once. Give it too much to do—too many molecules to xenometabolize and “absorb” into safe bodily molecules—and the result is called “septic shock.”

Acquisitions are a poison. You can do one or two at a time, but even then, they’ll slow you down; slow down the rate at which you act upon the stuff you fully control. And if you do too many of them, you’ll just keel over.

Personally, I want to feed Facebook as many companies as possible. Ideally, feed it companies where the founders then leave and build more companies to feed it, with the aim of extracting unbounded amounts of resources from—and continuously poisoning—the behemoth. (Heck, these acquired companies have employees that get absorbed, too. Hopefully they’re vetted by the founders as following their ethical precepts. If they are, then the founders are essentially air-dropping good people into Eviltopia—good people who the evilcorp can’t just clean-sweep out without stalling the acquired company. That’s even more “poison” it has to deal with, and even more revenue-negative delay.)

Re: WhatsApp co-founder accuses Facebook of trading privacy for revenue

#58
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see nothing hypocritical about good people taking payment from evil people. “Payment” means that the resources of the payer go down, and the resources of the payee go up. Now Facebook have less money that they can use to influence the world in stupid/evil ways, and the WhatsApp founders have more money they can use to influence the world in good ways. And, in exchange, since Facebook now owns the service of WhatsAp…

This may be the most elaborate rationalization of selling out I’ve ever read.

No, I’ve got a better one, actually!

Lotteries are a net benefit for society, because they transfer money from irrational people (ticket buyers) to rational people (lottery runners.) Even if the lottery-runners are not good people†, the fact that they’re rational means that they’ll be spending more of their newly-acquired resources on “wise” (usually morally-neutral) investments, and less on things that end up benefitting evil people, like buying illegal drugs.

My whole stance, here, is that you can take a graph of economic transactions, and color the vertices as being good or evil. Consequentialism would suggest doing whatever moves the most money (across the entire economy, as nth-degree knock-on reactions to your action) from evil actors to good actors.

One consequence of this stance: you should never (before considering those nth-degree effects) buy from a person/company you think is evil. You’re helping them liquidate their assets! Now they have more freedom to do evil with them!

(Whereas, in the opposite case, if you sell an evil person a house, now they just... have a house. It’s a mostly-illiquid asset. They can’t do much with it except live in it. If you sell evil a house—knowing they’re going to live in it, not hold it or flip it as an investment property—then you’re effectively letting evil voluntarily freeze part of its assets. Great!)

The sound bite version of all this: if $dictator wants to pay all their money to be hooked up to an eternal-bliss machine, it is your moral duty to take that money. Whether or not you think they “deserve” eternal bliss, they’re getting something that doesn’t harm anyone else; and in exchange, you’re taking all the resources they’d use to harm anyone in the future away from them. This isn’t selling out: it’s a negotiated solution that satisfies both parties’ preferences (where your morals are part of your preferences.)

I fully believe that this is how we’ll have to deal with any aliens we ever meet. They’ll want some things we think are evil. We’ll want some things they think are evil. The solution is to trade, as much as possible, in ways that satisfy the mutually-acceptable shared subset of our preferences—which comes, on both sides, at the expense of our resources to do mutually-unacceptable things. (I.e., not the GDP-improving kind of trade; the “money is disappearing from the economy” kind of trade, e.g. employing foreign experience-service providers where you get nothing fungible in return for your money.)

——

† Lottery runners—at least in the case of state-run lotteries—are actually usually pretty okay people. They’re usually the same people who run state alcohol licensing: i.e., “temperance”/“moderation” people, the kind who wanted prohibition passed back when. The newer generations of them aren’t activists, but beuraucratic pragmatists; they know they can’t just prohibit these things, so instead they try to ensure that as few people touch them as possible. Usually the same people running a state lottery are pushing for those “Game responsibly” ads, and discouraging media coverage of casinos.

But, of course, you could still do better. A lottery that donates the proceeds to charity would be an unalloyed good.

Re: WhatsApp co-founder accuses Facebook of trading privacy for revenue

#59
post #6

The people who take money just to then talk shit about the people whom their got their money from...that’s really the lowest class of human being. I mean would you want to work with such person?

But what if he is right?

Then why not return the money or burn it in public protest?

If I would feel like him I would not want that money...I would want to put some weight behind my critism...

Re: WhatsApp co-founder accuses Facebook of trading privacy for revenue

#60
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sounds like all the company had is people and your expertise. Why didn't you quit and create a new company with the same people? Also, knowing what you know now, would it be better to sell the whole company when your investor wanted an exit? Or what you think you should've done?

Not giving a guy who’s bringing nothing to the table but money 51% of your company sounds like a good idea. Not trying to be mean, but as soon as I read that I was like „Oh boy...“

That is basically what we learned from it. About a year ago me and two other friends wanted to start a new company and we found investors but they wanted to have those 51% so after many negotiations and back and forth the thing they didn't want to give up was the 51% which lead to us not working together with them. It's just not worth to invest all the work into a new company which you don't own to a degree that you can decide what to do.
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