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Feds Can't Force You to Unlock Your iPhone with Finger or Face, Judge Rules

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Re: Feds Can't Force You to Unlock Your iPhone with Finger or Face, Judge Rules

#51

Post by gph1234 »

miles wrote: post #34
nerflad wrote: post #29

This might be a good time to let others know: Android (at least my OnePlus) has a "Lockdown" mode in the shutdown menu that locks the screen and prevents the usage of the biometric methods. You have to use the password. This is good because passwords have already been hashed out in court and are unequivocally protected by the fifth amendment; you don't have to tell an officer your password (and entering it for them c…

In iOS 11 and higher, you can disable Touch ID by pressing the power button 5 times in quick succession: https://www.macrumors.com/2017/08/17/ios-11-emergency-sos-di... > In iOS 11, Apple has added an "Emergency SOS" feature that's designed to give users a quick and easy way to summon emergency services should the need arise. As it turns out, there's a secondary benefit to Emergency SOS - it's also a way to quickly a…

"Pressing power button 5 times in quick succession" doesn't work on my iPhone 8 Plus running iOS 12. To achieve the same effect, I need to hold the power button and one of the volume buttons for a couple of seconds.

Re: Feds Can't Force You to Unlock Your iPhone with Finger or Face, Judge Rules

#52

Post by checkyoursudo »

bootlooped wrote: post #37
jakelazaroff wrote: post #3

Relevant excerpt: > “The undersigned finds that a biometric feature is analogous to the 20 nonverbal, physiological responses elicited during a polygraph test, which are used to determine guilt or innocence, and are considered testimonial.” So it's analogous to a passcode because you're divulging something stored by your body, as opposed to e.g. a metal key which is artificial. Tangentially related, it's astounding t…

I'm not sure how the courts will differentiate between biometric data related to authentication and biometric data from blood tests, breathalyzers or DNA tests. The latter are, in a sense, examples of forcing you to divulge something stored in your body.

Implied consent (the authority the police use to try to force you to divulge your blood alcohol content) is a well-established area of law.

The courts can differentiate it by saying that the legislature has written implied consent laws that cover what you are deemed to have consented to when operating a motor vehicle, and that the legislature has not written implied consent laws for cell phones/etc.

Right now it's a pretty easy case for the courts, though higher courts have justified much worse with much less.

It's possible a legislature could write implied consent laws for cell phones, but I don't think they have yet. Not sure if they'd withstand court review, but I am afraid they might.

Re: Feds Can't Force You to Unlock Your iPhone with Finger or Face, Judge Rules

#53

Post by dylan604 »

jedberg wrote: post #35
nerflad wrote: post #29

This might be a good time to let others know: Android (at least my OnePlus) has a "Lockdown" mode in the shutdown menu that locks the screen and prevents the usage of the biometric methods. You have to use the password. This is good because passwords have already been hashed out in court and are unequivocally protected by the fifth amendment; you don't have to tell an officer your password (and entering it for them c…

iPhone too. Press the power button five times and it goes into password only mode.

it depends on what phone you have. the key press combo is different depending on what model you have. the 6s+ is 5 presses of the power key, but that is a very conspicuous thing to do. other/newer models have a much more inconspicuous button press combo that could be done while "attempting" to hand over the device.

Re: Feds Can't Force You to Unlock Your iPhone with Finger or Face, Judge Rules

#54

Post by dylan604 »

coralreef wrote: post #48
jedberg wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

iPhone too. Press the power button five times and it goes into password only mode.

Holding the power + volume button also forces a lock, and is more discreet in that it doesn't make blaring beeps and call emergency.

the beeps can be turned off, though, so that's a good thing.

Re: Feds Can't Force You to Unlock Your iPhone with Finger or Face, Judge Rules

#55

Post by dylan604 »

mikeash wrote: post #41
justadudeama wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I highly doubt it, even for American citizens at the border. The "Border search exception" pretty much says that anywhere within 100 miles of a boarder, the fourth amendment doesn't apply[1]. I imagine they would make a similar rule for the fifth amendment. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Border_search_exception

Citizens can’t be denied entry. Worst case if you refuse to turn over your phone password is a short (hours, maybe days) detention, and confiscation of your phone. Non-citizen admittance is at the discretion of the immigration officer and they can turn you away for just about any reason. Either way, yes, this ruling wouldn’t change anything there.

they can detain you for a limited amount of time, but they can confiscate your devices for an indefinite period.

Re: Feds Can't Force You to Unlock Your iPhone with Finger or Face, Judge Rules

#56

Post by miles »

gph1234 wrote: post #51
miles wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In iOS 11 and higher, you can disable Touch ID by pressing the power button 5 times in quick succession: https://www.macrumors.com/2017/08/17/ios-11-emergency-sos-di... > In iOS 11, Apple has added an "Emergency SOS" feature that's designed to give users a quick and easy way to summon emergency services should the need arise. As it turns out, there's a secondary benefit to Emergency SOS - it's also a way to quickly a…

"Pressing power button 5 times in quick succession" doesn't work on my iPhone 8 Plus running iOS 12. To achieve the same effect, I need to hold the power button and one of the volume buttons for a couple of seconds.

Sorry - looks like the power button x5 trick only works on iPhone 7 and earlier (had tested successfully on a 6S before posting): https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT208076

Re: Feds Can't Force You to Unlock Your iPhone with Finger or Face, Judge Rules

#57

Post by sjwright »

ColanR wrote: post #50
dsfyu404ed wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed. Pretty much everything in forensic science turns out to be junk science over a long enough timeline. Hair, bite marks, fire progression, all junk. There's even a few cracks in the fingerprint wall. Don't get me started on all the field test kits of various types that LEOs use. The only things that seem to be reliable are things that don't have their roots in forensic science (e.g. using DNA to identify people…

And along those lines, I've heard that DNA tests aren't reliable either.

DNA tests prove a very specific narrow fact, and it’s up to lawyers to string together a hypothesis in order for it to have relevance.

Unfortunately all too often the DNA test result is used as proof of a hypothesis, not of the mere presence of surprisingly similar DNA in a swab sample.

Re: Feds Can't Force You to Unlock Your iPhone with Finger or Face, Judge Rules

#58

Post by SketchySeaBeast »

dsfyu404ed wrote: post #10
SketchySeaBeast wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even forensic science can be used questionably. Really, once you're in the court room it's entirely rhetoric and fudge-factor.

Agreed. Pretty much everything in forensic science turns out to be junk science over a long enough timeline. Hair, bite marks, fire progression, all junk. There's even a few cracks in the fingerprint wall. Don't get me started on all the field test kits of various types that LEOs use. The only things that seem to be reliable are things that don't have their roots in forensic science (e.g. using DNA to identify people…

> and even then you still have to depend on a crime lab (run by the people doing the prosecuting) to not be sloppy.

Which CSI has done a wonderful job of turning into super-cops in the eyes of jurys.

Re: Feds Can't Force You to Unlock Your iPhone with Finger or Face, Judge Rules

#59

Post by mjevans »

ColanR wrote: post #50
dsfyu404ed wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed. Pretty much everything in forensic science turns out to be junk science over a long enough timeline. Hair, bite marks, fire progression, all junk. There's even a few cracks in the fingerprint wall. Don't get me started on all the field test kits of various types that LEOs use. The only things that seem to be reliable are things that don't have their roots in forensic science (e.g. using DNA to identify people…

And along those lines, I've heard that DNA tests aren't reliable either.

The problem with the DNA tests we use today, assuming even perfect cases with zero contamination or mistakes (whole other argument there), is that (in my non-expert understanding):

    * Taking the samples and using several solutions to snip them at given patterns.
    * Taking another solution and promoting replication of the fragments.
    * Using some dye and a weight sorting channel to bin the fragments by weight.
This results in a kind of 'bar code' that graphs the distribution of weights as a VERY crude hash of samples of DNA.

It's pretty useful for determining things like IF it is LIKELY that individuals are related.

It's also pretty good at confirming negatives (We're sure someone is NOT related to X).

It's not that great at confirming positives. That is, the results are both subjective and ambiguous given the hashing. A "positive" result here is really more of an "OK, it's likely we should run the real and expensive check, evaluate if someone might be a suspect by other merits, etc."

I would, offhand, consider a "positive" above to be enough evidence to produce /suspicion/ and /warrants/ to locate other specific evidence to ascertain an actual guilt or innocence based on harder evidence. If an actual "sequence the whole set of samples" option enters the realm of feasible tests then it would also warrant actually doing that.

Come to think of it, I'm not sure how the Ancestry/etc novelty DNA tests work. I'd assume they've isolated a few specific markers they're looking for and the processes are optimized towards identifying those and comparing combinations for those specific traits.

Re: Feds Can't Force You to Unlock Your iPhone with Finger or Face, Judge Rules

#60

Post by njarboe »

dsfyu404ed wrote: post #10
SketchySeaBeast wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even forensic science can be used questionably. Really, once you're in the court room it's entirely rhetoric and fudge-factor.

Agreed. Pretty much everything in forensic science turns out to be junk science over a long enough timeline. Hair, bite marks, fire progression, all junk. There's even a few cracks in the fingerprint wall. Don't get me started on all the field test kits of various types that LEOs use. The only things that seem to be reliable are things that don't have their roots in forensic science (e.g. using DNA to identify people…

High quality video can be quite useful for getting closer to the truth in many cases. Fits under your tech not developed for forensic science category though.
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