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Wall Street Rule for the #MeToo Era: Avoid Women at All Cost

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Re: Wall Street Rule for the #MeToo Era: Avoid Women at All Cost

#51
This sort of fear-based hypercorrection, a misguided but not necessarily ineffective form of risk avoidance, happens in many walks of life. The same calculus is at the root of non-lower-class whites (as well as nearly everyone of high status) in the US avoiding neighborhoods with blacks and latinos. To them, the visible race serves as a proxy to all sorts of unpleasantness they wish to avoid, purely on correlation, and even as racism has moved more and more towards being publicly unacceptable, the habits of racist behavior remain because, unfortunately, of their perceived utility by those who apply them.

The utility function here is similar. The men in these situations have a lot to lose because they're in positions of power, yet live in relative obscurity without the social support system afforded to well-known public figures. They may or may not engage in behavior that's actually sexist, and they may or may not engage in behavior that's sexual harassment. False accusations of sexual assault, by all indications, are rare, and any accusation is reputationally costly to accusers in many ways. Data about false accusations of sexual harassment is harder to come by, as it's rarely treated as a criminal matter. But the statistics don't matter when the drastic outcome is so dire: if any of these men were to be accused, the current political climate ensures their careers and reputations will meet a swift end. To many, this is an unacceptable risk that requires mitigation.

Re: Wall Street Rule for the #MeToo Era: Avoid Women at All Cost

#52

So as a father of two daughters in their 20's, this makes me sad. Instead of attempting to see women as equals and moving to bridge the gap -- the best solution Wall Street can come up with is to further isolate themselves? Why can't these men just learn to treat women like the humans they are?

..because there isn't a "these men." There are individuals mostly concerned with themselves and their friends (also daughters etc.) and there are institutions.. The institutions just want to avoid trouble, and "changing the human X" is not a viable tactic.

Re: Wall Street Rule for the #MeToo Era: Avoid Women at All Cost

#53
post #2

Personal opinion - the lack of a "innocent until proven guilty" judicial system when it comes to sexual harassment claims is what has caused much of the fear of women. Colleges, businesses, and online communities almost always simply believe the victim, and even if a trial should occur and the accused is vindicated, the accused has already been fired, expelled, or crucified by public opinion. The records of the accus…

The judicial “beyond reasonable doubt” process is far from perfect, it has many shortcomings and is only suitable for the justice system because we’ve decided that it’s much better for someone guilty to walk free than for someone innocent to be incorrectly punished. This doesn’t work in smaller environments, like an office, because if the guilty walks free then the innocent person — the victim — suffers directly by their continued and unavoidable presence in their life.

I have served on a jury in a sexual assault trial and after what I’ve seen of the process first hand I would rather work for a company that doesn’t roleplay as the judicial system and instead believes the victim and uses the preponderance of evidence approach for determining guilt.

Most people guilty of sexual assault (in the literal sense not the legal sense) will never face any legal consequences because of how the judicial system works: I would never want to work in an office where the same was true.

Re: Wall Street Rule for the #MeToo Era: Avoid Women at All Cost

#55

This is cowardice. Rational cowardice, perhaps, but still cowardice nonetheless. > “Some men have voiced concerns to me that a false accusation is what they fear,” said Zweig, the lawyer. “These men fear what they cannot control.” This reveals so much about the mentality of the people being interviewed. The statistics of false rape accusations do not justify this concern. I would expect that an industry that copes wi…

What is the difference between cowardice and "rational cowardice"?

Cowardice, defined here as the lack of personal integrity in the face of occupational hazards, can sometimes be rational and sometimes be emotional.

Some of the men are demonstrating a rational argument (albeit based on flawed statistics), but they're using it to justify running away from the problem rather than addressing it.

Re: Wall Street Rule for the #MeToo Era: Avoid Women at All Cost

#56
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When there have already been numerous well-documented instances of people making false accusations that absolutely RUIN THE LIVES of the defendants, it can hardly be a surprise that people with a lot to lose would take drastic, if ill-though-out, measures to protect themselves from that possibility. As another comment said, even when the false accusations are found to be false, it's usually too late for the defendant…

Hey, can you show me some of these well documented instances? The Duke Lacross case gets brought up a lot, but all those guys were exonerated and as far as I'm aware doing fine. Kavanaugh just got appointed to the Supreme Court and Lois C.K is popping up to do comedy sets, so I'm curious to see these many well documented cases you refer to.

The Duke Lacrosse players were crucified - 88 professors signed a letter vilifying them before any meaningful evidence. PROFESSORS - the arbiters of the scientific standard. Imagine if there wasn't exonerating evidence.

People refer to Kavanaugh as a rapist when he wasn't even accused of rape. 50% (or more) of the country still thinks of him as such. His family and children received death threats.

The case of Brian Banks is an example that should meet your standard. Black man with a potential professional football career goes to jail, DNA evidence exonerates years later.

Your past is still vital to who you are, both in your own eyes and in the eyes of others. Your comment is ignorant of the trauma that these circumstances bring to the accused - if you can have empathy for the victim, you should be able to carry the same empathy for the accused.

Re: Wall Street Rule for the #MeToo Era: Avoid Women at All Cost

#57
post #9
post #2

Personal opinion - the lack of a "innocent until proven guilty" judicial system when it comes to sexual harassment claims is what has caused much of the fear of women. Colleges, businesses, and online communities almost always simply believe the victim, and even if a trial should occur and the accused is vindicated, the accused has already been fired, expelled, or crucified by public opinion. The records of the accus…

Really, employers, universities, etc. should not even be involved in these kinds of claims. They are not competent to investigate them. If a crime has been committed, there is a judicial system that can and will deal with that, with established standards regarding presumption of innocence and burden of proof.

Isn't the topic at hand how businesses should handle the balance between keeping harassment out of the workplace, but not, in the name of that cause, overzealously punishing people who are implicated as having harassed somebody? Surely you're not suggesting that 100% of such cases fall into either: A. Crimes the victims of which should go to the police with. or B. So harmless that no business should ever take any action on it.

I would probably agree with an argument, if you were to make it, that the punishments in some of these cases that are driven by the reaction of larger social groups are too quick and too harsh. However, it sounds to me like you're making a much more extreme case that I have to disagree with.

Re: Wall Street Rule for the #MeToo Era: Avoid Women at All Cost

#58
post #16

It’s scary that this is done by people who earn money by managing risk. They came to the conclusion that this is the smartest way to operate. That should not be taken lightly.

Unless you can demonstrate they are as competent at risk assessment in this arena as they are in finance, you're fine to take it as lightly as anyone else's personal decisions. There's no a priori reason someone good at financial risk assessment would be as good at rationally modeling and reacting to risk in a domain which is significantly more personal and less quantifiable.

Re: Wall Street Rule for the #MeToo Era: Avoid Women at All Cost

#59
post #2

Personal opinion - the lack of a "innocent until proven guilty" judicial system when it comes to sexual harassment claims is what has caused much of the fear of women. Colleges, businesses, and online communities almost always simply believe the victim, and even if a trial should occur and the accused is vindicated, the accused has already been fired, expelled, or crucified by public opinion. The records of the accus…

> Colleges, businesses, and online communities almost always simply believe the victim, and even if a trial should occur and the accused is vindicated, the accused has already been fired, expelled, or crucified by public opinion

If you flip this statement, you find yourself in a similarly bad situation: if you always assume the perpetrator is innocent, the victim is now in a world of hurt until / if they can get a conviction. Unfortunately a lot of times for various reasons (many to do with the psychology of being a _person_, e.g. shame / no report, shock / slow to report) it devolves into "he said she said" because there's no physical evidence anymore The result is that women live in a state of _perpetual fear of men_. And that's current state.

^ That's not even to mention that women are disproportionately likely to be assaulted / hurt by men than the other way around.

I'm not saying _presuming guilt_ is good. But that's not what happens, and your statement is a bit misleading. When you mention "firing/expelling/crucifying" you must remember these are usually done with pretty thorough investigation / good reason to believe the victim; there are far and away more cases of offenders getting away with their misdeeds.

Re: Wall Street Rule for the #MeToo Era: Avoid Women at All Cost

#60
post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's just common sense for people to protect their future/careers. And it's not just men that think that way - from the article: > A late-40-something in private equity said he has a new rule, established on the advice of his wife, an attorney: no business dinner with a woman 35 or younger.

Yeah. That's good advice ... because (#metoo movement aside) WHO HAS "BUSINESS" DINNERS ALONE WITH MARRIED PEOPLE? This is something completely different than having dinner with a group of people.

I do.
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