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Man Who Stole Plane Near Seattle Raises Troubling Security Question

nytimes.com

51–60 of 213 posts

Re: Man Who Stole Plane Near Seattle Raises Troubling Security Question

#51
post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Bombardier Q400 can seat 80 people and weighs 40,000 lbs empty.

Which is about half of the weight of a loaded 18 wheeler.

If the 18 wheeler has a path to a target that lets it hit the target at top speed, it would only be delivering about 20% of the kinetic energy the plane would assuming an empty plane operating at maximum safe low altitude speed.

That's with a high performance truck. A more average truck, or a truck with its speed limited by a governor (common in many commercial fleets) would have about 10% of the kinetic energy of the plane.

And remember, this is assuming the truck can get to its target at top speed. In reality a lot of targets are not reachable by a path that would allow a truck at speed. If the truck can only get to 50 mph (80 kph), it would only deliver about 6% of the plane's kinetic energy.

The plane has a much much larger set of targets that it can deliver full kinetic energy to.

The above is assuming the pilot decides to fly into the target on a fairly level flight path and obeying the manufacturer's safety limits. If the pilot is willing to fly unsafely before the crash, he could probably got 2x to 4x the kinetic energy.

In short, a stolen fully loaded truck is a much smaller threat than a stolen empty Q400, unless what the truck is loaded with is also a threat.

Re: Man Who Stole Plane Near Seattle Raises Troubling Security Question

#52
post #9

Surprising it has taken decades for someone to try this. At least we don't have to wait on delayed planes while the pilot tracks down the key...

It's not like the engine start procedure on one of those things is a turnkey solution. The amount of domain knowledge needed serves as a form of soft security.

Yet there’s plenty of knowledge out there if you know where to look.

Want to steal an Airbus A320? Here’s the complete startup procedure:

https://youtu.be/uqKeSO6msDk

Re: Man Who Stole Plane Near Seattle Raises Troubling Security Question

#53

> Mr. Russell stole a plane from the airport and flew it for about an hour before it crashed. (emphasis mine) Wonder why Air National Guard's scrambled F-15s [0] didn't engage and bring the plane down before the individual commandeering the prop -- Mr. Russell -- brought the aircraft down with himself in the Ketron Island. IIRC, the plane flew over several densely populated areas before going down, and I can imagine…

He didn't give any indication of being a danger to others. He was obviously someone who was dealing with a mental health crisis, while still being present and coherent. The ATCs were trying to talk him down and get him to land; shooting the plane down would have been a last resort, only ordered if he demonstrated he was going to do harm to others.

Re: Man Who Stole Plane Near Seattle Raises Troubling Security Question

#54

> Mr. Russell stole a plane from the airport and flew it for about an hour before it crashed. (emphasis mine) Wonder why Air National Guard's scrambled F-15s [0] didn't engage and bring the plane down before the individual commandeering the prop -- Mr. Russell -- brought the aircraft down with himself in the Ketron Island. IIRC, the plane flew over several densely populated areas before going down, and I can imagine…

From what I've read, the tower personnel were in communication with the individual. Perhaps they believed they could talk him down. As far as shooting down the plane, I have no idea how possible that would have been without risking greater collateral damage. Perhaps it could have been done over the sound. But this incident comes to mind: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Palmdale

Very much so - the article had some audio embedded in it, but here is a longer version:

http://garchives1.broadcastify.com/15227/20180810/2018081022...

Re: Man Who Stole Plane Near Seattle Raises Troubling Security Question

#55

It's really nice to see American Air Supremacy in response to a potential terrorist air threat. Neutralizing the stolen plane with a Sidewinder missile would have provided a slightly better show of force to would-be terrorists, but this was pretty good IMO. Our Air Force is more powerful than it's ever been, while our mental health system was better off back in the 1940s.

I'm glad they deployed the fighter jets in case they were needed, but I'm equally glad they tried to avoid firing and managed to do so. While I applaud them for handling the possibility of terrorism, I applaud them even more for evaluating the actual situation and reacting proportionately.

Tragic incident, but well handled by NORAD.

Re: Man Who Stole Plane Near Seattle Raises Troubling Security Question

#56
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Listen to the recording of ATC personnel talking to the rogue pilot. He's just a normal guy with a few screws loose. I think they correctly assessed this man to be non-threatening to ground targets. Now, if the guy was non-responsive or erratic or started making threats, I do expect that the F15s might have been used.

The recordings are surreal. He was talking about how beautiful Mount Rainer was and how he was going to check out the Olympics. He even asked for the coordinates to that Orca pod up here that's been in the news lately. I immediately got the sense he wasn't a threat, at least not intentionally - just a guy a bit lost. (Yes obviously I know he was still a major threat regardless of if he meant to do any harm.)

Very much surreal. He seemed very content considering his dire circumstances. Not to take away from the severity of his actions, but the fact that he completed what looked like a barrel roll w/o seemingly any prior flight experience is interesting to say the least.

Re: Man Who Stole Plane Near Seattle Raises Troubling Security Question

#57
post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So soft, you can find the QRH in both the cockpit and online[0]. Or more fun learn it in an accurate simulator e.g.: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J0Z1WFDz81k [0] https://flyuk.aero/assets/downloads/resources/checklists/UKV...

"DOCUMENTATION ..........................................ON BOARD" Wait... isn't that what you'd be reading right there? Or is the documentation and checklist not the same thing?

The checklist is what you'd be reading, usually a laminated one-page card kept in a convenient spot. The documentation that the checklist refers to is the full "user manual" for the plane, with things like the quick reference handbook (QRH) that includes the step-by-step procedures covering what to do for every single warning light, emergency condition, etc. Also "documentation" here could also cover the mandatory things you have to have in the plane like the airworthiness certificate, registration, FCC radio license, insurance certificate, etc.

So I guess the short answer to your question is yes, in this context the documentation and checklist are not the same thing.

Re: Man Who Stole Plane Near Seattle Raises Troubling Security Question

#59

Two things really caught me about this story besides the security implication. First, the skill Russell deployed from (only?) having used a PC flight simulator surprised me. If Russell in fact never had any flight experience outside a simulator, well, I'm just stunned at what he was capable of doing. (Linked in article, here for convenience.) [0] Second, and more importantly, Russell's demise is tragic, pure and simp…

There are flight simulator packages available for many different planes, including the Q400. They feature fully functional cockpits. Here's a tutorial of the Q400's sim cockpit:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nl7mMDBamvw

Re: Man Who Stole Plane Near Seattle Raises Troubling Security Question

#60
post #49

There is of course a lot sad about this story but something joyful as well. Many people commit suicide without such a final moment of exhilaration.

> Many people commit suicide without such a final moment of exhilaration.

...and without costing tax payers (F-15 fighter jets scrambling) and private companies (the airlines that owned the crashed plane) millions of dollars, causing stress and anxiety to people boarding other flights at Seattle airport and the subsequent delays to everyone else.

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