Man Who Stole Plane Near Seattle Raises Troubling Security Question • Hacker News Board

Re: Man Who Stole Plane Near Seattle Raises Troubling Security Question

#11

Post by lx3459683 » Sun, Aug 12, 2018, 4:16 AM UTC

abhiminator wrote: post #3

> Mr. Russell stole a plane from the airport and flew it for about an hour before it crashed. (emphasis mine) Wonder why Air National Guard's scrambled F-15s [0] didn't engage and bring the plane down before the individual commandeering the prop -- Mr. Russell -- brought the aircraft down with himself in the Ketron Island. IIRC, the plane flew over several densely populated areas before going down, and I can imagine…

> I can imagine a thousand horrifically different ways this could have turned out

Like what? It's a small prop plane with a tiny amount of fuel and mass. Stealing a truck is considerably easier and can be used to do considerably more damage.

This 'hurr so scary we need to act' line of reasoning is why people have traded all their freedoms away in exchange for illusionary protection. The attack surface from a malicious actor is near infinite. Worry about the fact that your country's healthcare system kills hundreds of thousands of people every year by denying treatment, not about what a guy in a light aircraft could have done.

Re: Man Who Stole Plane Near Seattle Raises Troubling Security Question

#12

Post by ethbro » Sun, Aug 12, 2018, 4:17 AM UTC

abhiminator wrote: post #3

> Mr. Russell stole a plane from the airport and flew it for about an hour before it crashed. (emphasis mine) Wonder why Air National Guard's scrambled F-15s [0] didn't engage and bring the plane down before the individual commandeering the prop -- Mr. Russell -- brought the aircraft down with himself in the Ketron Island. IIRC, the plane flew over several densely populated areas before going down, and I can imagine…

Because aside from not being trained to fly an aircraft, the pilot didn't seem to have any murderous intent.

Killing an American citizen who is not presenting an immediate threat still needs a higher bar than "It's easier."

Thankfully, the military pilots stayed cool in a situation like this and waited until they received orders to fire.

Re: Man Who Stole Plane Near Seattle Raises Troubling Security Question

#13

Post by nostrademons » Sun, Aug 12, 2018, 4:18 AM UTC

abhiminator wrote: post #3

> Mr. Russell stole a plane from the airport and flew it for about an hour before it crashed. (emphasis mine) Wonder why Air National Guard's scrambled F-15s [0] didn't engage and bring the plane down before the individual commandeering the prop -- Mr. Russell -- brought the aircraft down with himself in the Ketron Island. IIRC, the plane flew over several densely populated areas before going down, and I can imagine…

If you have a choice between knowingly killing a man (and perhaps several people on the gound) and waiting for him to likely crash on his own but possibly land the plane with no injuries, why would you choose the former? You can always fire on him later if it looks like he's going to be a danger to large populated areas, but if you fire on him now you know you're going to be a danger.

Both TFA and your link indicate that ATC had him flying over Puget Sound, the Olympics, and other sparsely-populated areas, and had vectored all other traffic away from him. It's likely that when he flew over densely populated areas it was before the F-15s were scrambled. Watching and seeing how the situation plays out is probably their safest option in this case.

Re: Man Who Stole Plane Near Seattle Raises Troubling Security Question

#14

Post by keypusher » Sun, Aug 12, 2018, 4:19 AM UTC

abhiminator wrote: post #3

> Mr. Russell stole a plane from the airport and flew it for about an hour before it crashed. (emphasis mine) Wonder why Air National Guard's scrambled F-15s [0] didn't engage and bring the plane down before the individual commandeering the prop -- Mr. Russell -- brought the aircraft down with himself in the Ketron Island. IIRC, the plane flew over several densely populated areas before going down, and I can imagine…

I would imagine there is set of criteria which would absolutely trigger the fighters to bring down the plane, but those were not met, and those in charge erred on the side of caution. Bringing it down aggressively would not be without its own risks, as the aircraft and debris are still going to crash down somewhere. Additionally it means taking the life of a citizen, and causing a lot of damage that the National Guard is then somewhat responsible for, and potential PR backlash. I believe it was clear early on in this case that the guy was not a terrorist, and he didn't intend to hurt anyone, so adopting a "wait and see" approach seems quite smart.

Re: Man Who Stole Plane Near Seattle Raises Troubling Security Question

#15

Post by gumby » Sun, Aug 12, 2018, 4:20 AM UTC

> "Mr. Russell...had worked his shift on Friday."

So glad they told us this important fact. I wonder if his final direct deposit (to his estate) will include that days' pay or if it will count as a vacation day?

Has the news always been this inane?

Re: Man Who Stole Plane Near Seattle Raises Troubling Security Question

#16

Post by yborg » Sun, Aug 12, 2018, 4:20 AM UTC

lx3459683 wrote: post #11

abhiminator wrote: post #3

> Mr. Russell stole a plane from the airport and flew it for about an hour before it crashed. (emphasis mine) Wonder why Air National Guard's scrambled F-15s [0] didn't engage and bring the plane down before the individual commandeering the prop -- Mr. Russell -- brought the aircraft down with himself in the Ketron Island. IIRC, the plane flew over several densely populated areas before going down, and I can imagine…

> I can imagine a thousand horrifically different ways this could have turned out Like what? It's a small prop plane with a tiny amount of fuel and mass. Stealing a truck is considerably easier and can be used to do considerably more damage. This 'hurr so scary we need to act' line of reasoning is why people have traded all their freedoms away in exchange for illusionary protection. The attack surface from a maliciou…

The Bombardier Q400 can seat 80 people and weighs 40,000 lbs empty.

Re: Man Who Stole Plane Near Seattle Raises Troubling Security Question

#17

Post by Rotdhizon » Sun, Aug 12, 2018, 4:21 AM UTC

abhiminator wrote: post #3

> Mr. Russell stole a plane from the airport and flew it for about an hour before it crashed. (emphasis mine) Wonder why Air National Guard's scrambled F-15s [0] didn't engage and bring the plane down before the individual commandeering the prop -- Mr. Russell -- brought the aircraft down with himself in the Ketron Island. IIRC, the plane flew over several densely populated areas before going down, and I can imagine…

And to think, even if they decided to take him down, it would have likely been over a populated area. Unless they disintegrated it with missiles while in the sky, it likely would have ended in a catastrophe. The decision to not take the plan out as soon as they had the chance to safely was interesting. Their lack of action could have resulted in the deaths of hundreds, if not thousands of people.

Interestingly enough though, a lot of people aren't too mad at what he did. Quite a few people have paid their respects to this guy. He took the plane, saw some great views and did a barrel roll, then told the fighter pilot guys he was going to bring it down himself. I do like that most sources aren't trying to paint this guy as the devil. Sure what he did was wrong, but he sure did go out in style. Who else can ever say they did a freaking barrel roll in a commercial airliner.

The way the news outlets handled this was sickening. They all hopped on the opportunity to make a headline that they knew damn well would lead people to believe a fully loaded plane was hijacked mid flight.

Now the implications that a ground crew person was able to board a plan unnoticed, and take off is insane. This brings up the whole perspective of sleeper agents and inside jobs. Most data breaches are from insider threats, who's to say the next big thing isn't mass deaths resulting from insider threats.

Nice to see this was down voted?

Re: Man Who Stole Plane Near Seattle Raises Troubling Security Question

#18

Post by stopnamingnuts » Sun, Aug 12, 2018, 4:22 AM UTC

abhiminator wrote: post #3

> Mr. Russell stole a plane from the airport and flew it for about an hour before it crashed. (emphasis mine) Wonder why Air National Guard's scrambled F-15s [0] didn't engage and bring the plane down before the individual commandeering the prop -- Mr. Russell -- brought the aircraft down with himself in the Ketron Island. IIRC, the plane flew over several densely populated areas before going down, and I can imagine…

Correct. Every neighborhood around SeaTac is densely populated.

Re: Man Who Stole Plane Near Seattle Raises Troubling Security Question

#19

Post by lx3459683 » Sun, Aug 12, 2018, 4:22 AM UTC

yborg wrote: post #16

lx3459683 wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I can imagine a thousand horrifically different ways this could have turned out Like what? It's a small prop plane with a tiny amount of fuel and mass. Stealing a truck is considerably easier and can be used to do considerably more damage. This 'hurr so scary we need to act' line of reasoning is why people have traded all their freedoms away in exchange for illusionary protection. The attack surface from a maliciou…

The Bombardier Q400 can seat 80 people and weighs 40,000 lbs empty.

Which is about half of the weight of a loaded 18 wheeler.

Re: Man Who Stole Plane Near Seattle Raises Troubling Security Question

#20

Post by vvanders » Sun, Aug 12, 2018, 4:24 AM UTC

abhiminator wrote: post #3

> Mr. Russell stole a plane from the airport and flew it for about an hour before it crashed. (emphasis mine) Wonder why Air National Guard's scrambled F-15s [0] didn't engage and bring the plane down before the individual commandeering the prop -- Mr. Russell -- brought the aircraft down with himself in the Ketron Island. IIRC, the plane flew over several densely populated areas before going down, and I can imagine…

My uninformed guess is that the F-15 were scrambled to intercept if the plane started heading towards Bangor, Bremerton shipyards or JBLM.

Lots of military bases and critical infra up in the PNW, thankfully it didn't appear to be the case in this incident.