Facebook to Remove Misinformation That Leads to Violence • Hacker News Board

Re: Facebook to Remove Misinformation That Leads to Violence

#51

Post by Certhas » Wed, Jul 18, 2018, 11:23 PM UTC

martin1975 wrote: post #11

The only thing that can and ought to be realistically removed is illegal speech and SCOTUS has already defined what that is... Any other attempts, while well intentioned, will probably backfire. FB seems to take one step forward and two steps back each time they try to take some moral high ground when it comes to free speech... I like the fact they recently increased transparency behind who is paying for ads - whethe…

There are always cases where it is hard to understand what is true and what is not. But then there are also explicit lies.

It's not hard to adjudicate that Trumps ambassador to the Netherlands is lying when he talks about politicians being burned to death in the Netherlands due to immigration. But having the claim repeated over and over still creates the impression that there is some truth to it.

And that in turn hurts immigrants and makes it harder for people to come to rational decisions.

Your reasoning basically presumes that all humans are infinitely rational and have infinite time to investigate facts (the reader gets to decide). Neither of these assumptions is true, or a useful approximation. Otherwise user interface design for programs would look extremely different.

As people have all sorts of cognitive fallacies built in, and have extremely limited time to investigate facts, we need to build (and maintain) a society that makes it easy to come to rational, reasonable decisions. The Internet has disrupted the social structures that performed this function in the past, and new ones are only slowly emerging.

Re: Facebook to Remove Misinformation That Leads to Violence

#52

Post by dragonwriter » Wed, Jul 18, 2018, 11:25 PM UTC

pcunite wrote: post #21

spork12 wrote: post #9

Censorship is wrong, it's impossible for anyone to have an unbiased opinion.

Exactly, FB is book burning. If they want to stop organization on their platform that is one thing, but to stamp out opinions is something else.

> Exactly, FB is book burning.

No, FB is (to continue the use of book-centered metaphors) choosing not to distribute certain books through its book distribution network.

Re: Facebook to Remove Misinformation That Leads to Violence

#53

Post by afuchs » Wed, Jul 18, 2018, 11:25 PM UTC

saas_sam wrote: post #40

vkou wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My understanding of the lynchings is that they work by someone sharing a 'Billy is a pedophile' on FB/WA, the 'news' going viral, and a few hours later, concerned citizens show up at Billy's house, with axes and tire irons. Not that different from the pizzagate bullshit back in 2016. [1] [1] https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2017/06/22/533941689...

The assumption you are making that seems so obviously wrong I am shocked anyone on Earth would make it: that concerned citizens with axes and tire irons will stay home as long as certain things aren't said. They're showing up anyway, buddy. You can walk on eggshells all you want, force everyone on the Internet to walk along with you, and they will still be out there. If your goal in life is to live as long as possibl…

Are angry mobs waiting to violently attack someone because their neighbor doesn't like the color their house is painted? Is this indistinguishable from when an angry mob violently attacks someone because their neighbor libeled them?

The problem, as history has repeatedly shown, is that speech has consequences. Even simple jokes have lead to violence.

Re: Facebook to Remove Misinformation That Leads to Violence

#54

Post by anothergoogler » Wed, Jul 18, 2018, 11:31 PM UTC

Certhas wrote: post #44

This is the most American comment section. Somehow the fact that Facebook might remove lies that lead to violence is objectionable on free speech grounds. That they remove pictures of nipples is somehow not a matter of great concern...

Nobody's talking about pictures of nipples because the submission has nothing to do with them.

Re: Facebook to Remove Misinformation That Leads to Violence

#55

Post by spork12 » Wed, Jul 18, 2018, 11:35 PM UTC

dragonwriter wrote: post #50

spork12 wrote: post #9

Censorship is wrong, it's impossible for anyone to have an unbiased opinion.

> Censorship is wrong Censorship of one's own platform is a central element of free speech. > it's impossible for anyone to have an unbiased opinion. That's true, but doesn't support the preceding claim.

True, "censorship is wrong" is my own personal opinion, and I agree with you in that censorship of your own platform is practicing free speech.

Re: Facebook to Remove Misinformation That Leads to Violence

#56

Post by martin1975 » Wed, Jul 18, 2018, 11:35 PM UTC

Certhas wrote: post #51

martin1975 wrote: post #11

The only thing that can and ought to be realistically removed is illegal speech and SCOTUS has already defined what that is... Any other attempts, while well intentioned, will probably backfire. FB seems to take one step forward and two steps back each time they try to take some moral high ground when it comes to free speech... I like the fact they recently increased transparency behind who is paying for ads - whethe…

There are always cases where it is hard to understand what is true and what is not. But then there are also explicit lies. It's not hard to adjudicate that Trumps ambassador to the Netherlands is lying when he talks about politicians being burned to death in the Netherlands due to immigration. But having the claim repeated over and over still creates the impression that there is some truth to it. And that in turn hur…

well put. I am for both options existing on the internet - for people who want an AOL/Compuserve/tailored kind of internet as well as for people who like to live on the UNIX command line and peruse gopher for news :).

The 1st Amendment, which I admit I treat as the 'gospel' of free speech in these cases, allows for both. It just seems private enterprise in certain geographic areas of the world tends to skew more toward one view of the internet while leaving out the other in the cold... I'm trying to put this is mildly as I can :).

Re: Facebook to Remove Misinformation That Leads to Violence

#57

Post by saas_sam » Wed, Jul 18, 2018, 11:37 PM UTC

afuchs wrote: post #53

saas_sam wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The assumption you are making that seems so obviously wrong I am shocked anyone on Earth would make it: that concerned citizens with axes and tire irons will stay home as long as certain things aren't said. They're showing up anyway, buddy. You can walk on eggshells all you want, force everyone on the Internet to walk along with you, and they will still be out there. If your goal in life is to live as long as possibl…

Are angry mobs waiting to violently attack someone because their neighbor doesn't like the color their house is painted? Is this indistinguishable from when an angry mob violently attacks someone because their neighbor libeled them? The problem, as history has repeatedly shown, is that speech has consequences. Even simple jokes have lead to violence.

Can you seriously imagine a world where behavior and speech are restricted to that which does not cause people to get angry and potentially violent? Can you both imagine that world and also want to live in that world?

Re: Facebook to Remove Misinformation That Leads to Violence

#58

Post by spork12 » Wed, Jul 18, 2018, 11:40 PM UTC

martin1975 wrote: post #48

spork12 wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I agree with your sentiment. The 1st amendment starts with "Congress shall make no law". Facebook is free to police whatever content they don't like without any repercussions in law. It is up to society "us" to police a company like facebook that is doing things we don't agree with.

exactly and I do not disagree. There is wisdom however in allowing the maximum latitude to everyone in their expression. It is my belief that the 1st amendment through its numerous evolutions, refinements and interpretations in the 200+ year history of American jurisprudence allows for more freedom of expression than what Mark Zuckerberg and his investors or Jack Dorsey and his investors can come up with.... I am cer…

Right, it us up to us to enjoy the content we want. The internet provides everything from porn to gambling to politics to hacker news and that is a beautiful thing.

Re: Facebook to Remove Misinformation That Leads to Violence

#59

Post by afuchs » Wed, Jul 18, 2018, 11:41 PM UTC

saas_sam wrote: post #57

afuchs wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are angry mobs waiting to violently attack someone because their neighbor doesn't like the color their house is painted? Is this indistinguishable from when an angry mob violently attacks someone because their neighbor libeled them? The problem, as history has repeatedly shown, is that speech has consequences. Even simple jokes have lead to violence.

Can you seriously imagine a world where behavior and speech are restricted to that which does not cause people to get angry and potentially violent? Can you both imagine that world and also want to live in that world?

To the extent that it's possible, yes. Just look at Canada's hate speech laws if you want a real world example.

Re: Facebook to Remove Misinformation That Leads to Violence

#60

Post by AnimalMuppet » Thu, Jul 19, 2018, 12:01 AM UTC

spork12 wrote: post #46

AnimalMuppet wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, if you call for violence on FB, they can arrest you after the violence has already been triggered. That's good, if it keeps you from being able to do it again. It's better to keep it from happening the first time, though.

"after the violence has already been triggered" no... there are laws on the books targeting threats. If you make a bomb threat you can be prosecuted.

I think you miss my point. I make a post on FB calling for all right-thinking citizens to beat up spork12. I get arrested after the post has been made on FB, and after it has been read by too many people. Sure, I've been arrested. But you can't make people un-read it. How many people read it and think I was right, and will try to put my suggestion into action?

Note well: This is post is not an actual threat, nor is it a call to violence.