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China banned letter N from internet after people used it to attack Xi Jinping

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Re: China banned letter N from internet after people used it to attack Xi Jinping

#51

Post by tannerwj »

landryraccoon wrote: post #50
mabbo wrote: post #13

The really scary part of that article is the screenshot of Weibo with every message censored automatically with "content is illegal". If you think this sort of thing could never happen in the west, I think you're underestimating how quickly it could happen. The constitutions and bills of rights of any country are not laws of nature that can't be broken- they're words on paper that governments or populist movements ca…

Isn’t the more important question, if you disagree with someone and had the power to censor them, would you do it? Unless people believe in free speech even when it benefits points of view they disagree with, its future in society is in peril. Nobody wants opinions they like to be censored, it’s much more difficult to say that the NRA or religious fundamentalists should have the same protected right of speech as ever…

Exactly. We don't need protections for the speech we like. Free speech exists for the speech we don't like.

Re: China banned letter N from internet after people used it to attack Xi Jinping

#52

Post by liberte82 »

landryraccoon wrote: post #50
mabbo wrote: post #13

The really scary part of that article is the screenshot of Weibo with every message censored automatically with "content is illegal". If you think this sort of thing could never happen in the west, I think you're underestimating how quickly it could happen. The constitutions and bills of rights of any country are not laws of nature that can't be broken- they're words on paper that governments or populist movements ca…

Isn’t the more important question, if you disagree with someone and had the power to censor them, would you do it? Unless people believe in free speech even when it benefits points of view they disagree with, its future in society is in peril. Nobody wants opinions they like to be censored, it’s much more difficult to say that the NRA or religious fundamentalists should have the same protected right of speech as ever…

Democracy requires shared values. It's what allows us to disagree in a civil manner. Once values become divergent enough, democracy is no longer really possible because accepting the outcome of losing becomes intolerable.

Re: China banned letter N from internet after people used it to attack Xi Jinping

#53

Post by liberte82 »

dictum wrote: post #30
tuxracer wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> they're words on paper that governments or populist movements can easily ignore For example, China's constitution also contains "Article 35. Citizens of the People's Republic of China enjoy freedom of speech, of the press, of assembly, of association, of procession and of demonstration." However various words and phrases to even mention Article 35 itself are banned in some chat apps, etc... in China even though the…

They can do it without any cognitive dissonance by either classifying certain persons as non-citizens (hence not granted those rights) or by raising some unclear limit to these rights (so those who break national unity, "harmony" or some such aren't covered). An example outside of China: Venezuela's Maduro, paying attention to international sensibilities, now classifies opposition to him and his government as "hate s…

Free speech zones? cough

Re: China banned letter N from internet after people used it to attack Xi Jinping

#54

Post by liberte82 »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #43
tuxracer wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> they're words on paper that governments or populist movements can easily ignore For example, China's constitution also contains "Article 35. Citizens of the People's Republic of China enjoy freedom of speech, of the press, of assembly, of association, of procession and of demonstration." However various words and phrases to even mention Article 35 itself are banned in some chat apps, etc... in China even though the…

China is not a rule of law country, so whatever it’s constitution actually says isn’t very important legally speaking. Even this two-term was just a speed bump to be repealed quickly if convenient by a rubber stamp congress.

The US is just one branch of government away from the same fate.

Re: China banned letter N from internet after people used it to attack Xi Jinping

#55

Post by liberte82 »

arnaud12 wrote: post #49
FrozenTuna wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is there something seriously wrong with that? The whole argument people here are trying to make is how quickly freedom of speech can erode. In that context, it is absolutely apples to apples when you compare freedom of speech in US, France, Germany, China, wherever.

As a French person, the American view of "everything else than absolute free speech is not free speech" annoys me. Our view on that subject is different and I don't feel like living in China.

Not to mention that the American view of free speech also is not absolute. They just define theirs as the "most free". It's just hypocrisy.

Re: China banned letter N from internet after people used it to attack Xi Jinping

#56

Post by Overtonwindow »

mabbo wrote: post #13

The really scary part of that article is the screenshot of Weibo with every message censored automatically with "content is illegal". If you think this sort of thing could never happen in the west, I think you're underestimating how quickly it could happen. The constitutions and bills of rights of any country are not laws of nature that can't be broken- they're words on paper that governments or populist movements ca…

Absolutely. As a lobbyist I encounter this issue all the time. Unfortunately it's both parties, albeit one more so than the other. Still, issue exists in both parties which is scary.

Re: China banned letter N from internet after people used it to attack Xi Jinping

#57

Post by dTal »

barkingcat wrote: post #25
JudasGoat wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

China's constitution sounds very unlike their real policy. Is there no recourse for Chinese citizen's to challenge unconstitutional actions?

You must be mistaken. China's Constitution matches exactly with daily life in China. Of course there's a way to challenge unconstitutional actions, through the Communist Party member dispute process where you can escalate to each level of political officers in the township you live in. If you go high enough, you might get personal attention from the regional or even provincial governors, who also have to make sure th…

I do not understand this comment. Is it sarcasm? Or do you use some unusually restrictive definitions of "freedom of speech, of the press, of assembly, of association, of procession and of demonstration"?

China has literally just banned the word 'disagree'.

https://www.hongkongfp.com/2018/02/27/china-drowns-critics-l...

Re: China banned letter N from internet after people used it to attack Xi Jinping

#58

Post by tarken »

mabbo wrote: post #13

The really scary part of that article is the screenshot of Weibo with every message censored automatically with "content is illegal". If you think this sort of thing could never happen in the west, I think you're underestimating how quickly it could happen. The constitutions and bills of rights of any country are not laws of nature that can't be broken- they're words on paper that governments or populist movements ca…

consider that the internet is the new imperialism of the west. people are so quick to wag the finger at china but no one stops to think that they are looking iut for themselves. Companies like google and facebook promote western values and they do it subversively: whats the old Billy G quote? Integrate, assimilate, dominate, elimate or some such?

this article is just another western propaganda piece trying to paint China as this overbearing big brother entity (which I will admit is a very compelling narrative to western individualists).

Re: China banned letter N from internet after people used it to attack Xi Jinping

#59

Post by tarken »

dictum wrote: post #30
tuxracer wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> they're words on paper that governments or populist movements can easily ignore For example, China's constitution also contains "Article 35. Citizens of the People's Republic of China enjoy freedom of speech, of the press, of assembly, of association, of procession and of demonstration." However various words and phrases to even mention Article 35 itself are banned in some chat apps, etc... in China even though the…

They can do it without any cognitive dissonance by either classifying certain persons as non-citizens (hence not granted those rights) or by raising some unclear limit to these rights (so those who break national unity, "harmony" or some such aren't covered). An example outside of China: Venezuela's Maduro, paying attention to international sensibilities, now classifies opposition to him and his government as "hate s…

like censorship doesn't happen in the usa. remember all that media coverage sanders got when he was packing stadiums while Clinton could barely fill a highschool auditorium? me neither.

how many mass shootings china had last year? oh wait

how about all those bombs dropped daily in the middle east? ah ooos sorry, america again.

USA USA USA

Re: China banned letter N from internet after people used it to attack Xi Jinping

#60

Post by maeln »

arnaud12 wrote: post #49
FrozenTuna wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is there something seriously wrong with that? The whole argument people here are trying to make is how quickly freedom of speech can erode. In that context, it is absolutely apples to apples when you compare freedom of speech in US, France, Germany, China, wherever.

As a French person, the American view of "everything else than absolute free speech is not free speech" annoys me. Our view on that subject is different and I don't feel like living in China.

I am also French and I was not comparing France and China. I was just presenting fact: In France (and in other European country as well), we also censor content.

Now, obviously France and US have a different idea of what is free-speech and both view have advantages and disadvantages, I am not going to argue about this.

But, at least for speech, we know what is allowed and what is not allowed to be said. But when in come to internet censorship, the minister of interior affair is almost a unregulated black-box. As far as I remember, their was still the control of a judge , but their was no obligation to publicly have a list of banned website and the reason for their ban. Plus, all the government have been weakening the frontier between the executive and the juridical system for decades now, so the independence of judges regarding theses issues as been really weakened.

If that doesn't scare you enough, you can read some articles by Yve Sintomaire[0] which explain why France is one of the European country with the least defense against a derive to authoritarianism.

[0] http://civic-forum.eu/espace-public/yves-sintomer-la-france-...

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