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Evidence that the brain’s ability to control thinking relies on beta rhythms

news.mit.edu

51–60 of 65 posts

Re: Evidence that the brain’s ability to control thinking relies on beta rhythms

#51
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Skepticism due to insufficient evidence and lack of obvious plausibility isn't usually considered a strong opinion.

There is evidence though.

Whether or not there is evidence of this particular thing is irrelevant, because this subthread is about whether skepticism is just as irrational as blind belief when confronted with unsupported claims.

Re: Evidence that the brain’s ability to control thinking relies on beta rhythms

#52
post #12

I wonder how much this can be applied to day to day life. For example, the Binaural app on the iOS app store acts as a wave generator that lets you listen to specific frequencies. I'd be interested to see if you could force yourself into getting beta wave activity in the brain by just listening to beta frequencies -- almost as if to tune yourself manually.

But note that in this study the beta wave activity turned on and off in task-sensitive ways. It may not be useful to have some stimulus that increases or decreases beta wave amplitude in ways that are not sensitive to exactly what your brain needs at that very moment.

I mean, imagine you were investigating a CPU and found a pin that went high when the CPU wanted to write to memory. You wouldn't think "yeah, remembering shit is awesome, let's connect this to Vcc". No, that pin is only supposed to go high at specific times depending on exactly what the CPU is doing.

Re: Evidence that the brain’s ability to control thinking relies on beta rhythms

#53
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This assumes that brainwaves function the same in everybody and that their measurement means anything more than phrenology.

Do you base this claim off of any scientific evidence? Measuring schizophrenia based off of gamma oscillations is standard clinical practice. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27732692 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16571550 https://www.nature.com/articles/npp201617.pdf?origin=ppub

I didn't mean to imply they were totally useless just that too much might be read into them. I guess i did use a bad comparison.

Re: Evidence that the brain’s ability to control thinking relies on beta rhythms

#54
post #12

I wonder how much this can be applied to day to day life. For example, the Binaural app on the iOS app store acts as a wave generator that lets you listen to specific frequencies. I'd be interested to see if you could force yourself into getting beta wave activity in the brain by just listening to beta frequencies -- almost as if to tune yourself manually.

I liken it to current scientists trying to figure out how a modern motherboard or CPU works by sticking oscilloscopes onto individual circuits. Sure, you can get a readout of the fourier transforms and thus band frequency power of all the little signals going back and forth the little metal circuits and stuff. But it's really a small piece of the puzzle.

To wit - a lot of song and dance has been made regarding beta power in the subthalamic nucleus in Parkinson's patients (mostly because it is the only place we are FDA-allowed to go in a live human brain). Some ambitious researchers are claiming beta power is the "pathological signal" of Parkinson's disease...whereas it's more likely it's an epiphenomena of deeper computational issues with a damage basal ganglia circuit'

Re: Evidence that the brain’s ability to control thinking relies on beta rhythms

#55
post #13
post #12

I wonder how much this can be applied to day to day life. For example, the Binaural app on the iOS app store acts as a wave generator that lets you listen to specific frequencies. I'd be interested to see if you could force yourself into getting beta wave activity in the brain by just listening to beta frequencies -- almost as if to tune yourself manually.

I would love to see someone reply with personal experience. I have tried similiar apps for extremely brief periods and could feel a change.

Personal experience is the bane of science. And plural of “anectode” is “anectodes”, not “data”.

Having worked in the field for years, I am pretty sure that listening to some sound at some frequency might induce that rhythm in the appropriate part of the brain (I have worked on SSVEP which is the same thing for visual stimuli, and is easily detectable, there is also some evidence that it could work for sensory motor stimuli).

However, inducing some frequency somewhere in the brain is pretty useless. Beta activity has been known for some time as the “activity” indicator. But this is simply because that is the working frequency of the brain. Active means just that, is it good is it bad? That depends.

One thing that strikes me in the field is how sure people are that anything “induced” in the brain will be positive. If the binaural beats thing really worked, then you would have as much chance to create depression as a sense of calmness.

Re: Evidence that the brain’s ability to control thinking relies on beta rhythms

#56
post #55
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would love to see someone reply with personal experience. I have tried similiar apps for extremely brief periods and could feel a change.

Personal experience is the bane of science. And plural of “anectode” is “anectodes”, not “data”. Having worked in the field for years, I am pretty sure that listening to some sound at some frequency might induce that rhythm in the appropriate part of the brain (I have worked on SSVEP which is the same thing for visual stimuli, and is easily detectable, there is also some evidence that it could work for sensory motor…

> Personal experience is the bane of science. And plural of “anectode” is “anectodes”, not “data”.

And yet, eugenics was kind of heavily touted by scientists precisely because of an inability to accept as valid the personal experiences of the populations it targeted.

Re: Evidence that the brain’s ability to control thinking relies on beta rhythms

#57
post #12

I wonder how much this can be applied to day to day life. For example, the Binaural app on the iOS app store acts as a wave generator that lets you listen to specific frequencies. I'd be interested to see if you could force yourself into getting beta wave activity in the brain by just listening to beta frequencies -- almost as if to tune yourself manually.

>I'd be interested to see if you could force yourself into getting beta wave activity in the brain by just listening to beta frequencies -- almost as if to tune yourself manually.

Does it actually carry over? From what I understand about the speech recognition, our brain must be doing some equivalent of the Fourier transform fairly early in the pipeline (i.e. instead of a beta-wave, our brain will just get a more or less constant signal that this part of the audible spectrum is currently active).

Re: Evidence that the brain’s ability to control thinking relies on beta rhythms

#58
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Science is not being advanced by disproving crackpots. It's a waste of precious resource better spent elsewhere.

What's your definition of a crackpot? Someone who researches something varjag has a negative emotion towards?

Someone who maintains something is true while lacking any evidence of that. There's an infinity of possible untrue statements, but only finite amount of research resource. Disproving every crackpot theory doesn't advance actual science one tiny bit.

Re: Evidence that the brain’s ability to control thinking relies on beta rhythms

#60
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This was my reading of the paper/summary too - a demonstration of correlation but not the evidence of a causal link that the headline suggests. My understanding of neuroscience is limited however. Can someone with a better understanding point me at what I’m missing?

Your comprehension seems spot on to me, though maybe you feel like you're missing something given the apparent discrepancy between the hype vs. value of this research. I think there are two relevant factors here: 1) MIT is very good at publicity and press. 2) Causal neuroscience experiments are still technically challenging to implement in complex behaving organisms (e.g. monkeys and humans). We have methods such as…

Is the current thought that brainwaves affects the brain? What's the mechanism for this? They aren't even really waves like we think of radio waves or magnetic waves. Saying that brain waves have a "function" like a Scientific American article seems so backwards. I'm a little confused why the language used around them is of casuality.
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