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Atlas Shrugged film to be released in 2011

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Re: Atlas Shrugged film to be released in 2011

#51
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Note that most people who aren't fans of Atlas Shrugged resort to making dumb, belittling jokes about it rather than articulating an argument. The internet is full of parodies, etc., but there really aren't many people who dislike the book and are also capable of persuasively arguing against it without resorting to religious authority or mocking sneers (or both). Why? Probably because most people haven't read the boo…

When I first read the book, I started looking for criticism to see if I'd been tricked, or if she'd played on my emotions to make me think something was reasonable or logical that wasn't. I have found some obscure philosophical arguments that seemed to be based on a misunderstanding or different interpretation, or making a mountain out of what I think is a molehill. But those are in the minority. Almost all the criti…

I've read it. I was charmed by its philosophy...for a while. Then I had a good friend talk me down from the cloud.

The main theme of Atlas Shrugged, as I saw it, is that really smart/creative people are often used and abused by people in power, and that if all the smart/creative people left, that society would collapse.

Now, any attractive philosophy needs to have at least a grain of truth to be popular--and I fully agree that people are abused and manipulated by those in power. I identify as a smart and creative person, so of COURSE I want to be the one calling the shots, and not some idiot!

Where Rand falls short is in idolizing capitalism and taking an idealistic view of human nature. She also misses that if ANY large enough group walked out on society, it would grind to a halt--and that includes truck drivers, janitors, or whoever. It's called a strike.

The reality is that people are born into situations that make it possible to be smart/creative. The studies on this are conclusive--just giving a poor kid an extra year of preschool raises their chance of graduating high school, and their salary 35 years later. It's a fact that you were born to parents who taught you well as a young child that makes you smart enough to be arguing the merits of Ayn Rand.

This all destroys her core axiom that people who are the smart and creative builders of society are that way because of some inner moral purity, and therefore they deserve to be treated fairly--and the rest of society be damned, because they aren't as hard working/moral/whatever. The truth is that smart people are equally likely to be selfish (and lazy!) jerks; "enlightened self interest" is a fantasy that doesn't exist outside of possibly a few individuals and Rand novels. Looking at the other side, people without money or advanced skills frequently will vote against their own economic interests in order to vote their beliefs.

You can't base a real system of government on wishful thinking--ask the USSR how that worked out. Ironic that Rand came from that background only to espouse her own philosophy equally based on wishful thinking...but I digress.

The whole reality, in my opinion, is much bigger than just smart people being exploited: EVERYONE should be treated fairly, and no one should be exploited. Rand entices smart people by telling them that they're special, and that THEY are the ones should should be running the world. And to some degree I can buy into this. ;)

But not to the exclusion of helping others--and the sad truth of the matter is that charities can NOT do enough simply from voluntary contributions to support those who weren't as lucky in selecting their genes, and that means that taxes and government social programs are a necessary part of the moral behavior of society.

As are government rules that protect workers, or that protect the food supply, or that protect the environment, and the other things that libertarianism/objectivism would have us do away with.

She argues for pure, unregulated capitalism, and that's just completely insane. There's too much corporate influence in government as it is, and not enough regulation. Unless you think oil spills are fun, and don't mind the environmental damage that big Ag causes, and think that miners SHOULD be risking their lives for low pay, and on and on...

The reality is that the market spectacularly fails under some circumstances, and that government is necessary to regulate it.

There. I've said it. Let the libertarian downvoting commence...

Re: Atlas Shrugged film to be released in 2011

#52
post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's got some flaws, but it's one of the most pro-individualism, pro-production, pro-creativity, pro-persistence, pro-hard work, anti-politicking, anti-corruption works of all time. Her characterization of the people she's opposed to is a bit juvenile, but there's a lot of really good and valid stuff in there too - it's the only book I know of that acknowledges the phenomenon where a man works really hard to provide…

If that's all you took from her philosophy - being an individual is good, working hard is good, etc. - then you missed a lot of the detail. To Rand, the ultimate measure of one's self worth is how much money you are making vs. how much you could be making. Building a company up, then offshoring all of your labor to China is more moral than keeping your operations local, because it will lower your costs, and therefore…

It never ceases to amaze me the certitude with which people demonstrate their ignorance of Rand. This is complete nonsense. Rand never said making money is the highest value nor that it should be the sole standard of any value, dropping all other context.

A moments thought, if you know anything of Rands works, would demonstrate this to you. If you read The Foundtainhead, then you know that Roark gave up work for years because he had higher values in life than simply to maximize his income. And Atlas Shrugged was about a man who did the same, and took a bunch of others with him -- not because they thought this was the best way to optimize their long-term money making potential, but because the rest of the world had come to regard them, being creative and productive individuals, as chattel. (You might also recall that while there were a number of titans of industry, one was a composer, another was a professor, another an train engineer, etc.)

I don't know what it is about Rand that makes people think they're entitled to sling nonsense about her views around without the slightest effort at substantiation. You say Rand's is a "fairy tale land where everybody is always capable of making rational decisions with perfect information" and "Markets are always perfectly efficient". This is your fairy tale about Rand's views. I studied all of Rand's works quite extensively from about the age of 17 to 27, and I'm confident you cannot demonstrate that Rand held such views.

Re: Atlas Shrugged film to be released in 2011

#53
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where did you get the idea that Galt/etc went on strike because they felt underappreciated? They left because they don't want to support a system they believed to be immoral - compare to conscientious objectors to military service. Any CEO who wants to "go galt" can go right ahead -- they'll be replaced easily enough. Rand is well aware of this point. You seem unaware that the fundamental conflict in the novel is bet…

Thanks for the reasonable response regarding the morals. As far as "beyond simple disagreement", I guess "strenuous disagreement"? The fans of Rand philosophy seem to hate the idea of union employees striking for dental care for their kids but have no problem attempting to shake down the system if you're already rich. I totally do not understand this. Similarly, I think the whole "everyone's replaceable" thing is a f…

Which "fans of Rand philosophy" are you describing? What you said certainly doesn't apply to Nathaniel Branden, who was her biggest fan [1].

"Needless to say, men have a right to organize into unions, provided they do so voluntarily, that is, provided no one is forced to join."

http://www.nathanielbranden.com/catalog/articles_essays/labo...

Presumably she agreed with him, since she published it in the Objectivist Newsletter.

And yes, you are quite correct that Rand's novels tend to be idealistic and fairly unrealistic. They are merely parables designed to explain/promote her philosophy.

[1] He was her biggest fan when he wrote that. He got kicked out of the cult a few years later, when Rand found out he was banging someone besides her and his wife.

Re: Atlas Shrugged film to be released in 2011

#54
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where did you get the idea that Galt/etc went on strike because they felt underappreciated? They left because they don't want to support a system they believed to be immoral - compare to conscientious objectors to military service. Any CEO who wants to "go galt" can go right ahead -- they'll be replaced easily enough. Rand is well aware of this point. You seem unaware that the fundamental conflict in the novel is bet…

Thanks for the reasonable response regarding the morals. As far as "beyond simple disagreement", I guess "strenuous disagreement"? The fans of Rand philosophy seem to hate the idea of union employees striking for dental care for their kids but have no problem attempting to shake down the system if you're already rich. I totally do not understand this. Similarly, I think the whole "everyone's replaceable" thing is a f…

Rand actually said at one point (sorry I don't remember where) that striking was a legitimate way for workers to correct a situation where they're being paid below market rate -- as long as it was done voluntarily. What Rand opposed was pro-union legislation that coercively stacks the decks in the unions' favor.

Re: Atlas Shrugged film to be released in 2011

#55
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When I first read the book, I started looking for criticism to see if I'd been tricked, or if she'd played on my emotions to make me think something was reasonable or logical that wasn't. I have found some obscure philosophical arguments that seemed to be based on a misunderstanding or different interpretation, or making a mountain out of what I think is a molehill. But those are in the minority. Almost all the criti…

I've read it. I was charmed by its philosophy...for a while. Then I had a good friend talk me down from the cloud. The main theme of Atlas Shrugged, as I saw it, is that really smart/creative people are often used and abused by people in power, and that if all the smart/creative people left, that society would collapse. Now, any attractive philosophy needs to have at least a grain of truth to be popular--and I fully…

I don't know where you got the idea that intelligence is important to Rand. I think she's talking about passion. The sort of passion that drives inventors to stay up nights working on projects, etc.

Re: Atlas Shrugged film to be released in 2011

#56
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To Rand, the ultimate measure of one's self worth is how much money you are making vs. how much you could be making. Rand gave up $0.07/copy in royalties to make sure Galt's speech was included in the book. http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/189415/word-count/nicol... Roark, in the Fountainhead, also turns down money (and shuts down his company) to preserve his artistic vision. I really don't know where you got thi…

Well, she did say - "Money is the barometer of society's virtue".

Enough of the quote to get the actual point across: "Money is the barometer of society's virtue[...]when you see that men get rich more easily by graft than by work[...]your society is doomed."

http://www.silverbearcafe.com/private/aynrand.html

The quote has nothing whatsoever to do with maximizing profits. It's about watching the flow of money to determine what kind of society you live in.

Re: Atlas Shrugged film to be released in 2011

#58
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I read Atlas Shrugged and immediately followed it by (re)reading The Grapes of Wrath. Both are horribly doctrinaire (with opposing viewpoints), so it made for an interesting contrast. Steinbeck can at least put a sentence together.

Example of a particularly bad sentence? I'm curious b/c although I'm a native English speaker I was not put off by Rand's prose.

Nice placement of a semicolon: "That's not of any importance, even my life and work are not of any importance to me right now, nothing is of any importance; except I must find him."

"The window frame trembled with the speed of the motion, the pane hung over empty darkness, and dots of light slashed across the glass as luminous streaks, once in a while." What?

"What she felt in that moment contained, as one nameless part of it, the knowledge of the beauty in the posture of his body as he held her, as they stood in the middle of the room high above the lights of the city"

Again, what?

"This is the world and the core of it, this is what made the city – they go together, the angular shapes of the city and the angular shapes lines of a face stripped of everything but purpose – the rising steps of steel and the steps of being intent upon a goal – this is what they had been, all the men who lived to invent the lights, the steel, the furnaces, the motors – they were the world, they, not the men who crouched in dark corners, half-begging, half-threatening, boastfully displaying their open sores as their only claim on life and virtue – so long as he knew that there existed one man with the bright courage of a new thought, could be given up the world to those other? – so long as he could find a single sight to give him a life-restoring shot of admiration, could he believe that the world belonged to the sores, the moans and the guns? – the men who invented motors did exist, he would never doubt their reality, it was his vision of them that had made the contrast unbearable, so that even the loathing was the tribute of his loyalty to them and to that world which was theirs and his."

Open sores? Why not just choose a suitably racist epithet.

A 50 page speech? Would anyone listening to that (other than in the fake world that the book is set in) actually be awake?

These I got from just googling around, I don't have the book handy. I'll leave you with a quote from an actual writer, Salman Rushdie:

"No. I am not--and have never been--influenced by Ayn Rand. In fact, I pity anyone who is influenced by Ayn Rand. It's almost as bad as being influenced by Dan Brown."

And finally you can go read George Orwell on why the kind of prose that Rand writes, isn't just bad, it's evil. The same way Mein Kampf and the Communist Manifesto are evil:

http://www.mtholyoke.edu/acad/intrel/orwell46.htm

"As soon as certain topics are raised, the concrete melts into the abstract and no one seems able to think of turns of speech that are not hackneyed: prose consists less and less of words chosen for the sake of their meaning, and more and more of phrases tacked together like the sections of a prefabricated henhouse."

Re: Atlas Shrugged film to be released in 2011

#60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've read it. I was charmed by its philosophy...for a while. Then I had a good friend talk me down from the cloud. The main theme of Atlas Shrugged, as I saw it, is that really smart/creative people are often used and abused by people in power, and that if all the smart/creative people left, that society would collapse. Now, any attractive philosophy needs to have at least a grain of truth to be popular--and I fully…

I don't know where you got the idea that intelligence is important to Rand. I think she's talking about passion. The sort of passion that drives inventors to stay up nights working on projects, etc.

Rand certainly regarded intelligence as important but I don't think she regarded it as volitional. Of course one can volitionally act unintelligently, but for instance Eddie Willers in Atlas did not have Dagny's intelligence and efficacy, but he was a moral character and would have to be listed among the novel's heroes. Mike the construction worker in The Fountainhead would be a similar example.
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