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Atlas Shrugged film to be released in 2011

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Re: Atlas Shrugged film to be released in 2011

#41

Post by yummyfajitas »

grandalf wrote: post #35
yummyfajitas wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

True, though there is a perfectly good criticism to make - Rand is simply incorrect when she claims you can use reason to derive morality (either her specific kind, or any kind). You can use reason to evaluate actions based on moral principles of low complexity, but you simply can't derive those principles. In terms of formal logic, you need at least one true statement about the morality predicate in order to derive…

Have you read The Virtue of Selfishness ? I thought she did a decent job in justifying the first principles. Considering that a lot of philosophers rely upon concepts like God, I think Rand's is a lot better developed than people give it credit for. Rand's notion that humans have brains like animals have claws, and that brains are useful b/c they allow us reasoning, thus reasoning is good (to humans) like claws are g…

My point is that there are limits to the power of reason, which I never felt that Rand acknowledged. I freely admit that I only read her two major works (Atlas Shrugged and Fountainhead).

I would grant that you are correct that reasoning is a utilitarian good (for humans) just as claws are a utilitiarian good (for tigers), but it does not follow from this that reason can derive a notion of moral good.

Re: Atlas Shrugged film to be released in 2011

#42

Post by davidw »

LargeWu wrote: post #39
lionhearted wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's got some flaws, but it's one of the most pro-individualism, pro-production, pro-creativity, pro-persistence, pro-hard work, anti-politicking, anti-corruption works of all time. Her characterization of the people she's opposed to is a bit juvenile, but there's a lot of really good and valid stuff in there too - it's the only book I know of that acknowledges the phenomenon where a man works really hard to provide…

If that's all you took from her philosophy - being an individual is good, working hard is good, etc. - then you missed a lot of the detail. To Rand, the ultimate measure of one's self worth is how much money you are making vs. how much you could be making. Building a company up, then offshoring all of your labor to China is more moral than keeping your operations local, because it will lower your costs, and therefore…

> It is a fairy tale land where everybody is always capable of making rational decisions with perfect information. Markets are always perfectly efficient.

Well, just as the Marx fairy tail is studied, I think the Rand fairy tail (and it is) is good for thought too.

Re: Atlas Shrugged film to be released in 2011

#43

Post by jbooth »

yummyfajitas wrote: post #38
jbooth wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, first off, yeah, so if you're born into the situation that I described above (which I was and I'm pretty most HNers were), I think it's pretty entitled and childish to pretend that your accomplishments are yours alone and you have no obligation to the society that produced you. But sure, technically, you don't legally owe anybody anything. Second off -- if you're the boss, you take responsibility. Any CEO who w…

Where did you get the idea that Galt/etc went on strike because they felt underappreciated? They left because they don't want to support a system they believed to be immoral - compare to conscientious objectors to military service. Any CEO who wants to "go galt" can go right ahead -- they'll be replaced easily enough. Rand is well aware of this point. You seem unaware that the fundamental conflict in the novel is bet…

Thanks for the reasonable response regarding the morals.

As far as "beyond simple disagreement", I guess "strenuous disagreement"?

The fans of Rand philosophy seem to hate the idea of union employees striking for dental care for their kids but have no problem attempting to shake down the system if you're already rich. I totally do not understand this.

Similarly, I think the whole "everyone's replaceable" thing is a fundamental part of reality that anyone over the age of 14 should have figured out. I find it ironic when I get told that if I were older and less idealistic, I'd come around to Rand's viewpoint. Seems to me she's the idealist, except it's bizzaro idealism that fetishises selfishness.

Finally, as I said elsewhere in the thread, the novel's viewpoint on leadership clashes pretty strongly with my own viewpoint on leadership. Leadership's not about what's in it for you, it's about what's in it for the group, or else you're a bad leader.

Re: Atlas Shrugged film to be released in 2011

#45

Post by [deleted] »

davidw wrote: post #42
LargeWu wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If that's all you took from her philosophy - being an individual is good, working hard is good, etc. - then you missed a lot of the detail. To Rand, the ultimate measure of one's self worth is how much money you are making vs. how much you could be making. Building a company up, then offshoring all of your labor to China is more moral than keeping your operations local, because it will lower your costs, and therefore…

> It is a fairy tale land where everybody is always capable of making rational decisions with perfect information. Markets are always perfectly efficient. Well, just as the Marx fairy tail is studied, I think the Rand fairy tail (and it is) is good for thought too.

[deleted]

Re: Atlas Shrugged film to be released in 2011

#46

Post by grandalf »

yummyfajitas wrote: post #41
grandalf wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you read The Virtue of Selfishness ? I thought she did a decent job in justifying the first principles. Considering that a lot of philosophers rely upon concepts like God, I think Rand's is a lot better developed than people give it credit for. Rand's notion that humans have brains like animals have claws, and that brains are useful b/c they allow us reasoning, thus reasoning is good (to humans) like claws are g…

My point is that there are limits to the power of reason, which I never felt that Rand acknowledged. I freely admit that I only read her two major works (Atlas Shrugged and Fountainhead). I would grant that you are correct that reasoning is a utilitarian good (for humans) just as claws are a utilitiarian good (for tigers), but it does not follow from this that reason can derive a notion of moral good.

Good point. I agree that her argument is not the strongest there, but I can't imagine another one that could be any more persuasive, especially if it involved the supernatural or tradition as many do.

Re: Atlas Shrugged film to be released in 2011

#47

Post by dublinclontarf »

grandalf wrote: post #16
jbooth wrote: post #3

"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs."

Note that most people who aren't fans of Atlas Shrugged resort to making dumb, belittling jokes about it rather than articulating an argument. The internet is full of parodies, etc., but there really aren't many people who dislike the book and are also capable of persuasively arguing against it without resorting to religious authority or mocking sneers (or both). Why? Probably because most people haven't read the boo…

Read Atlas shrugged, liked it, so here are some critical comments.

Galts speech is too drawn out, I skipped over it after 2 pages (it's like 20 pages). Way too much repetition.

Characters are fairly stiff.

For a good month or two after reading I was a selfish shit. In this I think I'm not alone.

It's pretty difficult to find issues with the philosophy espoused in the book, I think the only thing worth criticizing is how poorly it is as a novel (as a political treatise it's a pleasant read).

Re: Atlas Shrugged film to be released in 2011

#48

Post by yummyfajitas »

LargeWu wrote: post #39
lionhearted wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's got some flaws, but it's one of the most pro-individualism, pro-production, pro-creativity, pro-persistence, pro-hard work, anti-politicking, anti-corruption works of all time. Her characterization of the people she's opposed to is a bit juvenile, but there's a lot of really good and valid stuff in there too - it's the only book I know of that acknowledges the phenomenon where a man works really hard to provide…

If that's all you took from her philosophy - being an individual is good, working hard is good, etc. - then you missed a lot of the detail. To Rand, the ultimate measure of one's self worth is how much money you are making vs. how much you could be making. Building a company up, then offshoring all of your labor to China is more moral than keeping your operations local, because it will lower your costs, and therefore…

To Rand, the ultimate measure of one's self worth is how much money you are making vs. how much you could be making.

Rand gave up $0.07/copy in royalties to make sure Galt's speech was included in the book.

http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/189415/word-count/nicol...

Roark, in the Fountainhead, also turns down money (and shuts down his company) to preserve his artistic vision.

I really don't know where you got this idea from.

Re: Atlas Shrugged film to be released in 2011

#49

Post by grandalf »

jbooth wrote: post #40
grandalf wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're taking the "Going Galt" concept out of context. In the context of the book it's at the end of a long dystopian spiral. The significance of it is that the characters have already been broken by the time they arrive there. Frankly, the ending is a bit unsatisfactory on a few levels. First, it's not a prescription for how to run a society (it's a small utopian community in the mountains) and yet the book ends qui…

I'm not taking it out of context. I'm pointing out how unbelievably stupid the context is. Is the book in the fantasy section? Does it have a disclaimer "this context is nothing like the real world so don't apply any of these philosophies"? As I understand it, the book is attempting to make a point about the real world. I'm saying that point is totally ignorant of how the real world works, particularly how leadership…

I don't think it's fair to make that criticism if you haven't read the book.

The book is a novel of ideas and is, as such, an abstraction. You should not try to interpret it as a prescription for how society should work.

I think what you're looking for is some sort of political treatise or pamphlet. Atlas Shrugged is an argument about the morality of capitalism. If you are looking for more than that in it you'll be disappointed.

I do recommend you take my advice and read it though... I generally have a policy of reimbursing people in beer for the amount they spend on a paperback version. I'm sure that I or someone else would happily extend that offer :)

Re: Atlas Shrugged film to be released in 2011

#50

Post by mone »

yummyfajitas wrote: post #48
LargeWu wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If that's all you took from her philosophy - being an individual is good, working hard is good, etc. - then you missed a lot of the detail. To Rand, the ultimate measure of one's self worth is how much money you are making vs. how much you could be making. Building a company up, then offshoring all of your labor to China is more moral than keeping your operations local, because it will lower your costs, and therefore…

To Rand, the ultimate measure of one's self worth is how much money you are making vs. how much you could be making. Rand gave up $0.07/copy in royalties to make sure Galt's speech was included in the book. http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/189415/word-count/nicol... Roark, in the Fountainhead, also turns down money (and shuts down his company) to preserve his artistic vision. I really don't know where you got thi…

Well, she did say - "Money is the barometer of society's virtue".
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