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CIA rendition flights from rustic North Carolina called to account by citizens

theguardian.com

51–60 of 182 posts

Re: CIA rendition flights from rustic North Carolina called to account by citizens

#51
post #8

The value systems of the people running this must be severely distorted. Can't torture at home so let's fly people to some dictatorship to get it done there. I guess it's the same mindset that caused a democratically elected president in Iran to be overthrown and replaced by a dictator in order to save freedom and democracy.

I suspect "I don't make the rules, I just enforce them" is the general way to get good people to go along with the government's schemes. One of my passengers got 'ordinarily-renditioned' [0] to the county jail. They let her go after a few hours, when the city cops found someone else who actually matched the description of the petty beer thief they were looking for. [0] http://www.taxiwars.org/2017/10/ordinary-renditi…

> I suspect "I don't make the rules, I just enforce them" is the general way to get good people to go along with the government's schemes.

This did not go well in Nurenberg.

Re: CIA rendition flights from rustic North Carolina called to account by citizens

#52
post #20
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We live in an age where "Muslim ban" sounds like appropriate policy to about half the population. In Democracy the people get the government they deserve. Guess we really don't deserve human rights and habeus corpus. So speak up. Educate your fellow citizens as to why these issues are important. Break through their media bubble/snowglobe and have multiple meaningful conversations that go deeper than the talking poi…

>So speak up. Educate your fellow citizens as to why these issues are important. Break through their media bubble/snowglobe and have multiple meaningful conversations that go deeper than the talking points spewed out by media personalities. Have you ever actually gotten that to work? Have you personally ever changed a single persons mind? Not trying to be facetious, but I'm incredulous.

> Have you ever actually gotten that to work? Have you personally ever changed a single persons mind?

I know the question wasn't directed at me, and it's not with respect to the proposed Muslim ban, but I have changed the mind of some of the voters from this general background: specifically, would-be Roy Moore voters. I convinced a good handful of them not to vote for him[1]. And as far as I know, they stayed home.

The key is to be extremely patient, honest, and respectful. You can't use the typical Twitter technique of beating them over the head with opinions, or even the blunt HN technique of overwhelming them with facts. You have to first try to understand their viewpoint, and where they are coming from. Doesn't mean you have to agree with it, just understand it. And the best way to do that is to start asking lots of respectful questions, and depending on the person, sharing your own background. Then, start interspersing harder questions about the subject in question, like Roy Moore in this case. Don't push too hard, but ask hard questions in a respectful way.

Of course, in these situations, you have to be open to having your opinion changed, as well.

It's not a very eloquent summary of what I've done in this situations, but it's the best I've got tonight.

1. Perhaps the hardest part about this is differentiating between propaganda sock puppet accounts, whom you will likely never convince, and actual people who happen to believe some pretty crazy things. Once you've identified real, genuine fellow citizens behind whatever pseudonymous social media account, you're half-way there.

Re: CIA rendition flights from rustic North Carolina called to account by citizens

#53
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>So speak up. Educate your fellow citizens as to why these issues are important. Break through their media bubble/snowglobe and have multiple meaningful conversations that go deeper than the talking points spewed out by media personalities. Have you ever actually gotten that to work? Have you personally ever changed a single persons mind? Not trying to be facetious, but I'm incredulous.

I largely share your incredulity, but allow me to make a more optimistic counterpoint. I frequently change my mind, which is proof that one or more people out there are changing at least one person's mind. And here's the thing: in nearly all cases, the person or, more often, the people who change my mind never know it. I am often stubborn in the moment and unwilling to admit I've been swayed. More often, I don't real…

I'm glad you made this point, because it's a maxim I live by: You can't change people, you can only encourage them to change themselves.

To effect change, people must be open and willing to change themselves. And I don't think most people are, especially the older we get.

If you want to change people's minds on a big scale, it's by educating the young, and creating incentives towards your way of thinking. It requires institutional power, and it takes generations.

Re: CIA rendition flights from rustic North Carolina called to account by citizens

#54
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>So speak up. Educate your fellow citizens as to why these issues are important. Break through their media bubble/snowglobe and have multiple meaningful conversations that go deeper than the talking points spewed out by media personalities. Have you ever actually gotten that to work? Have you personally ever changed a single persons mind? Not trying to be facetious, but I'm incredulous.

Works. Proof: me. I've changed my mind on certain topics - esp drugs and to a certain degree AGW based on discussions. Protip: calling me a troll, paid shill, downvoting honest questions doesn't work on people like me. I do however listen to reasonable arguments and take pride in being able to change my mind.

> Protip: calling me a troll, paid shill, downvoting honest questions doesn't work on people like me.

It doesn't work on anybody.

Re: CIA rendition flights from rustic North Carolina called to account by citizens

#55
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's the value system. Either you follow the laws and values of your country always or you don't. You can't protect values by violating them.

I think that's a bit extreme and a black and white way of thinking. For example, suppose you're heading an FBI group, and you've got a suicidal terrorist in custody who is part of a plot to detonate a nuclear bomb in LA. You have excellent evidence this guy is involved, and that the terrorists probably have a nuclear bomb in the country, and, if they realize their coconspirator has been captured, they are likely to d…

Suppose you have one person in custody that hates another and is totaly up for pointing finger at the other person even though they are innocent. Oh yeah, that guy is planning an attack. Of course, we could both stop making things up...

Re: CIA rendition flights from rustic North Carolina called to account by citizens

#56
post #20
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We live in an age where "Muslim ban" sounds like appropriate policy to about half the population. In Democracy the people get the government they deserve. Guess we really don't deserve human rights and habeus corpus. So speak up. Educate your fellow citizens as to why these issues are important. Break through their media bubble/snowglobe and have multiple meaningful conversations that go deeper than the talking poi…

>So speak up. Educate your fellow citizens as to why these issues are important. Break through their media bubble/snowglobe and have multiple meaningful conversations that go deeper than the talking points spewed out by media personalities. Have you ever actually gotten that to work? Have you personally ever changed a single persons mind? Not trying to be facetious, but I'm incredulous.

I just recently watched "City of ghosts"[1], and while there are many strong moments - one that stood out to me, is about in the middle, where these people - heroes in our time - who fled isis/daesh because of being persecuted - because of being citizen journalists - are in Berlin at a counter-demonstration against a neo nazi rally.

And it kind of just slots so many pieces of wrong conclusions and xenophobia and dehumanization of the "other" together in one, painfully clear image...

I'm not sure of that moves the needle on being able to convince anyone.. But if not we might as well all build gas chambers and furnaces and burn vagrants as a source of electricity. Because if we give up fighting for the right for all of being viewed as human - what's left?

[ed: to more directly answer the question - I know I've made people pause - but most recently - a friend really made someone reconsider/reframe their idea of feminism/equality due to an hour or two of discussion and and real-world examples. So it is possible, but it takes patience, emphaty and knowledge.]

[1] https://m.imdb.com/title/tt6333056/

Re: CIA rendition flights from rustic North Carolina called to account by citizens

#57
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wouldn’t say it’s their value system, rather it’s a result of the enormous pressure they face. Torture should only be used as a last resort, and when there’s no other hope of getting information that is needed ASAP.

Torture doesn't provide any valuable intelligence results for those doing the torturing, we're not living in "24", the TV series. I know for sure that if I were to be tortured I'd be ready to recognize even the killing of the biblical character Abel if those doing the torturing would ask that from me, and I guess I'm not the only person so predisposed.

That’s a myth, if you’re looking for objective verifiable facts you can get some useful information.

Also, if you have enough statistical data on torture methods, you can have a probability that a person doesn’t know something based on how long they’ve been actively tortured.

Re: CIA rendition flights from rustic North Carolina called to account by citizens

#58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suspect "I don't make the rules, I just enforce them" is the general way to get good people to go along with the government's schemes. One of my passengers got 'ordinarily-renditioned' [0] to the county jail. They let her go after a few hours, when the city cops found someone else who actually matched the description of the petty beer thief they were looking for. [0] http://www.taxiwars.org/2017/10/ordinary-renditi…

> I suspect "I don't make the rules, I just enforce them" is the general way to get good people to go along with the government's schemes. This did not go well in Nurenberg.

Because Germany was defeated (largely by Russia, who was promptly fitted as "new" enemy).

No one has been convicted for fire bombing dresden, or Hiroshima and Nagasaki - or the fire bombing campaigns in Japan. No one has been convicted over nan king. No one (afaik) have been convicted of us support for the coup in Chile.

There's atrocities to go around, only the weak at the international levek gets prosecuted.

And while it didn't "go well" in neurnberg - it certainly helped nazi Germany meet many milestones.

Re: CIA rendition flights from rustic North Carolina called to account by citizens

#59
post #4

That's real optimistic of the Guardian but somehow I doubt there's all that much grass roots support against rendition flights. We live in an age where "Muslim ban" sounds like appropriate policy to about half the population. In Democracy the people get the government they deserve. Guess we really don't deserve human rights and habeus corpus.

It's cheap of you to try to conflate the issue of torturing prisoners with the issue of restrictions on immigration. It is not inconsistent to support immigration restrictions on countries with Muslim extremists while simultaneously being against the torture of prisoners. You're tapping into identity politics.

Do you really need an exhaustive list of people not giving a shit about civil liberties, human rights and American values as long as its "terrorism and pedophiles"? "Muslim ban" is just the latest and least subtle. Let's work backwards:

Trump advocated targeting civilians in a war zone as a campaign promise. It was met with thunderous applause. https://www.christianpost.com/news/trump-kill-innocent-famil...

How do you like your second amendment? How do you like due process of law? How about fuck both those things cause we're going to put people on Kafkaesque lists without any day in court and bar them from gun ownership without explanation. Surely such a measure would be massively unpopular with Republicans... http://time.com/4370009/donald-trump-gun-control-watch-list-...

In fairness on that last one it didn't matter who you voted for. Hillary literally said the same thing. https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/elections/2016/...

Its not like the US would actively hack US citizens on US soil in order to suppress a peaceful protest. Oh shit. https://www.theregister.co.uk/2017/07/26/standing_rock_prote... But you know, fuck them hippie protestors and occupy types. Whole lot should go get jobs amirite?

Do I need to continue? Because I can. I've barely even touched upon the Obama era. And obviously the Patriot act and Guantanamo before that.

Let me be clear here. I don't hate America. But when transgressions like this are applauded it becomes clear that a huge fraction of our populace just doesn't stand for our values. Our country is only as good as the people in it.

Re: CIA rendition flights from rustic North Carolina called to account by citizens

#60
post #4

That's real optimistic of the Guardian but somehow I doubt there's all that much grass roots support against rendition flights. We live in an age where "Muslim ban" sounds like appropriate policy to about half the population. In Democracy the people get the government they deserve. Guess we really don't deserve human rights and habeus corpus.

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