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Universal Basic Income Explained – Free Money for Everybody? [video]

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Re: Universal Basic Income Explained – Free Money for Everybody? [video]

#51

Post by rtkwe »

sbjustin wrote: post #21
exabrial wrote: post #14

First line: "What if the state covered the cost of living?" Who is paying for the income? It's not "The state". It's everyone else, by taxation. You're telling people you have a right to seize their earnings for their labor. You're literally taking someone else's money, and giving it to someone else. UBI is nothing but people ignoring the moral problems of seizing assets and saying "The end justifies the means." If a…

I'm not sure why this is being down voted as this is a matter of opinion - an opinion that many agree with. In fact, in the US there is nothing in the constitution that supports the taxation of the people for these programs. I'm all for UBI actually but this opinion is still valid.

I haven't really see the constitutional challenge question come up. Seems like there's nothing really different than any number of other federal assistance programs funded by taxes other than scale.

As for why the down votes it's probably because it's the really tired 'taxes are theft' argument that a lot of people are really tired of hearing and arguing against.

Re: Universal Basic Income Explained – Free Money for Everybody? [video]

#52

Post by rev_bird »

Joeboy wrote: post #42

(in the context of first world countries with functional welfare states) I'm deeply skeptical of the idea that we're going to get some sort of new deal where the rich are suddenly happy with increased subsidy of the poor, in return for increased social cohesion or whatever. The rich generally resent paying taxes and avoid it where possible. Why are they suddenly going to be happy to pay more tax, to subsidize people…

>I suspect if you want the rich to pay for this you're going to have to be prepared to go full French revolution.

The real challenge is decoupling capital from political power. Otherwise, yeah, why would the rich just sit and watch it float away? If "more money" continues to translate so literally into "more influence," it's pretty hard to blame the rich for using their money to influence the government in ways that will help them continue to keep their money—at that point, it's just an investment.

Of course, this kind of supposes that the working class wouldn't vote to do that on their own. Given the recent trends in American politics, I've stopped making too many assumptions about the weird decisions we make as a group.

Re: Universal Basic Income Explained – Free Money for Everybody? [video]

#53

Post by rev_bird »

notzorbo3 wrote: post #17
dmm wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

UBI encourages marriage whereas traditional social programs discourage it. What's the problem?

Traditional social programs are a safety net for single people like those going through divorce and such. Under UBI, it just puts a lot more pressure on those people, while at the same time alleviating the pressure on multi-income households. It's might force people to stay together in unhappy marriages, etc. I see that as a problem.

>It's might force people to stay together in unhappy marriages, etc. I see that as a problem.

How many people are held captive in marriages because their spouse is the breadwinner? How many people stay for health insurance, or because they've spent so long raising children that their profession, if they had one to begin with, has passed them by? I shudder to think of how many abusive spouses have yelled, "Where would you even go?"

I think we agree that it's distasteful for financial concerns to put people in danger in unhealthy relationships, but I have a hard time seeing how "Making sure everyone has enough money to live" would make people MORE trapped.

Re: Universal Basic Income Explained – Free Money for Everybody? [video]

#54

Post by mcguire »

skybrian wrote: post #35
fpgaminer wrote: post #22

When it comes to UBI, there's an interesting psychological phenomenon. I believe that McDonald's and similar establishments could have automated away the vast majority of their work force years, maybe even decades ago. And yet there are still people working there. In fact, McDonald's is often viewed as many people's first entrance into the work force, and as a safety blanket if anything goes south (well worst case at…

Or possibly, service jobs are harder to automate than it appears? What evidence do you have that it's easy to automate? In theory, you could replace a McDonalds with a vending machine, but it's not the same thing.

Automats predate McDonald's by a considerable time.

Re: Universal Basic Income Explained – Free Money for Everybody? [video]

#55

Post by fpgaminer »

skybrian wrote: post #35
fpgaminer wrote: post #22

When it comes to UBI, there's an interesting psychological phenomenon. I believe that McDonald's and similar establishments could have automated away the vast majority of their work force years, maybe even decades ago. And yet there are still people working there. In fact, McDonald's is often viewed as many people's first entrance into the work force, and as a safety blanket if anything goes south (well worst case at…

Or possibly, service jobs are harder to automate than it appears? What evidence do you have that it's easy to automate? In theory, you could replace a McDonalds with a vending machine, but it's not the same thing.

Possibly. Customer facing service is certainly difficult to automate away. But I believe behind the counter workforce should be relatively simple. It's hard to fathom that the unskilled masses who end up working there can't be automated away.

It's not like we don't already have automated cooking lines. All the precooked foods at stores are from automated cooking lines. Just replicate that in the back of a McDonald's. I don't find that hard to fathom.

Some will say that "Well if McD's could have automated away those jobs already they would have." Market optimization and whatnot. But the market is always optimal from a _human_ perspective. Case-in-point: McD's switching away from their "pink goo" because of the backlash against it. Using pink goo was cheaper, but the uproar threatened demand, so they have to use more expensive alternatives. In the same way that I believe many, many jobs have not been automated away simply because the public backlash would destroy any business that tried.

Re: Universal Basic Income Explained – Free Money for Everybody? [video]

#58

Post by skybrian »

jandrese wrote: post #31
sharemywin wrote: post #2

I still don't see how UBI doesn't cause inflation enough to offset any benefit(in the near term ie before robot job apocalypses).

UBI is a fancy way of saying "take from the rich to give to the poor". It has to be combined with a progressive tax system to make sense. This isn't even a bad thing from an economic standpoint. Capitalism has the problem where wealth tends to accumulate upward naturally (rich get richer just because they're rich and have a bit of financial sense) and eventually starves itself of demand. Re-injecting cash in the low…

This supposed problem of higher wages would also be an argument against raising the minimum wage, and yet many people are in favor of that because they think low wages are the problem.

If UBI does indeed raise wages at the low end, it's because people have more options in life and made their own choices. Seems like a good thing, no?

More generally, inflation is usually a bad thing, except in the labor market where it's a good thing. If wages go up and the overall price level doesn't go up as much, that means people are earning more without their expenses going up as much.

Re: Universal Basic Income Explained – Free Money for Everybody? [video]

#59

Post by ihm »

lev99 wrote: post #23

A UBI of $12,000/year given to every adult by the goverment would double the annual government expenditure. That is fine, but we should have a talk about how the program is funded. This is one of the reasons I prefer talking about negative income tax. Yes, the concept is more complex, and has a worse acronym, but it is largely self-funded.

You could start with the Republican’s 1.5 trillion dollar tax break for the wealthy, and also the defense budget as the other commenter mentioned.

Re: Universal Basic Income Explained – Free Money for Everybody? [video]

#60

Post by thriftwy »

sharemywin wrote: post #26
thriftwy wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because many (most?) markets are buyer's markets. You try to increase prices, you are out of business which is eaten by competitors.

if everyone's costs go up everyone will be forced to raise prices.

Why would their costs go up?
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