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The attack of the SuperFakes

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Re: The attack of the SuperFakes

#51

Post by flukus »

dreamfactored wrote: post #50
jacquesm wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, those handbags and watches are bought simply because they allow the buyer to signal 'status'. If people with less money also get to signal that same status then the original loses its value. That's really all there is to it, a good user experience doesn't come in to play at all (most of that stuff is unusable anyway) and the 'most desirable' bit is exactly that: status.

It's about design, and design is inherently about quality and value. It's the reason you might choose to pay more for a handmade Italian shirt made in a small workshop that has been running forever compared to a mass-produced one made with the cheapest labour in Myanmar (though functionally equivalent at a basic level). The Italian shirt will have better fabric, stitching, a more expensive split-yoke that hangs bette…

> It's the reason you might choose to pay more for a handmade Italian shirt made in a small workshop that has been running forever compared to a mass-produced one made with the cheapest labour in Myanmar (though functionally equivalent at a basic level). The Italian shirt will have better fabric, stitching, a more expensive split-yoke that hangs better on your body - real tangible things.

I'd be curious to see if you could tell the difference under blind testing. In just about every other area it turns out that most people can't tell the difference.

Re: The attack of the SuperFakes

#52

Post by dreamfactored »

flukus wrote: post #51
dreamfactored wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's about design, and design is inherently about quality and value. It's the reason you might choose to pay more for a handmade Italian shirt made in a small workshop that has been running forever compared to a mass-produced one made with the cheapest labour in Myanmar (though functionally equivalent at a basic level). The Italian shirt will have better fabric, stitching, a more expensive split-yoke that hangs bette…

> It's the reason you might choose to pay more for a handmade Italian shirt made in a small workshop that has been running forever compared to a mass-produced one made with the cheapest labour in Myanmar (though functionally equivalent at a basic level). The Italian shirt will have better fabric, stitching, a more expensive split-yoke that hangs better on your body - real tangible things. I'd be curious to see if you…

I have expensive shirts and cheap ones. Definitely a tangible difference in look and feel, but some of my most functional are a cheap range from uniqlo which don't need any ironing and use good cotton. Unfortunately you are usually paying for a double yoke. It's true that what we think of as designer brands in clothing tend to rebadge and sometimes the only value they add is some visual design element. It's a part of why we see a focus on 'the artisanal economy' - a logo can be reproduced easily but somebody who has had decades of sewing shirt collars or handmaking shoes can't and has scarcity as well as quality. Not scalable individually but collectively very high value in much the same way.

Re: The attack of the SuperFakes

#53

Post by jacquesm »

dreamfactored wrote: post #50
jacquesm wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, those handbags and watches are bought simply because they allow the buyer to signal 'status'. If people with less money also get to signal that same status then the original loses its value. That's really all there is to it, a good user experience doesn't come in to play at all (most of that stuff is unusable anyway) and the 'most desirable' bit is exactly that: status.

It's about design, and design is inherently about quality and value. It's the reason you might choose to pay more for a handmade Italian shirt made in a small workshop that has been running forever compared to a mass-produced one made with the cheapest labour in Myanmar (though functionally equivalent at a basic level). The Italian shirt will have better fabric, stitching, a more expensive split-yoke that hangs bette…

And that's the crux of it: if you can't tell your fancy hand made suitcase by child labor in Myanmar from artisans in Italy then there is a problem.

Re: The attack of the SuperFakes

#54

Post by dreamfactored »

ASalazarMX wrote: post #49
dreamfactored wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The business guys who are into watches tend to have a good look at each others, talk watch collecting for a while, and can usually tell fakes.

The business guys who are into watches tend to buy fakes that can fool people like them. FTFY

I've had exactly that conversation with a few. You'd be surprised how many are serious collectors who invest in watches. That doesn't work with fakes. That whole Rolex culture is also a deliberate part of how they sniff out fake people. The examples in the article were terrible, I'm not a watch guy and could spot them a mile off. I can usually tell with bags, wallets, shoes. Very few fakes don't have clear tells if you know the originals, I sometimes wonder if it's deliberate.

Re: The attack of the SuperFakes

#55

Post by dreamfactored »

jacquesm wrote: post #53
dreamfactored wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's about design, and design is inherently about quality and value. It's the reason you might choose to pay more for a handmade Italian shirt made in a small workshop that has been running forever compared to a mass-produced one made with the cheapest labour in Myanmar (though functionally equivalent at a basic level). The Italian shirt will have better fabric, stitching, a more expensive split-yoke that hangs bette…

And that's the crux of it: if you can't tell your fancy hand made suitcase by child labor in Myanmar from artisans in Italy then there is a problem.

Yes. Until wages are globally normalised that's good news for Myanmar, bad news for Italy. Italy better make something that is more than a product of sheer labour and raw materials - and that's the definition of design.

I think perhaps what you're getting at is that it requires education and buy-in from the consumer and perhaps that we don't live in a world of urban sophisticates who care that much about the stitching of their trousers. I'd offer some counterexamples there - 1. iPhone. Not the cheapest smartphone by any means but has design writ large and running through the user experience - and hugely popular in emerging economies where you may expect everybody to be on cheaper android phones. 2. Adidas, Nike - kids will pay premium all over the world and don't want fakes. 3. Japanese denim enthusiasts. Got to have the old looms for making high quality denim and people are ready to pay huge amounts for that. That has even extended to reviving old ring spun looms to make sweatshirts so they have the right weight and feel. 4. Coca-Cola, Red Bull. 5. Premium alcohol brands. 6. Super expensive premium Spanish ham - huge in Asia now.

Re: The attack of the SuperFakes

#56

Post by smn1234 »

cantrip wrote: post #3

If a high quality watch is made from the same materials, in the same conditions, with the same brand logo, what does the term fake even mean? From the article: "Historically, less than 5 percent of the watches that we authenticate are fake,” said Powell. “At one point this number was as high as 10 percent.” However, the numbers are growing." Is it possible that the number of "fake" watches was always going up but tha…

An iPhone knockoff will not function as well as an iPhone. Whether material used or engineering of components or assembly of the end product.

It’s not about simple, straightforward metals either, but very specific, proprietary, researched blends. Some watch brands use metals that make the watch incredibly light. Others, based on clients’ preference, make the watch very heavy.

Particluarly, in a high end watch, not only do you pay for the craftsmanship and artistic design, form and function, but also for accuracy (e.g. +/- seconds lost per day, how certain tilts and the effect of gravity on influencing loss in accuracy) and power reserve and level of complications all working together. No disruption from magnetism or other natural forces. A lot of refinement goes into a high end watch. A fake becomes pretty obvious.

You also have to appreciate the scale. All that mechanics. Went from grandfather clocks to pocket watches to wrist watches. Getting smaller, more complicated (day, date, moon phase, alarms, etc.) and days of “natural” power reserve.

It’s quite fascinating engineering in fact ....

Re: The attack of the SuperFakes

#57

Post by sdrothrock »

Animats wrote: post #19

In the Swiss watch business, many movements are made by outsourcing firms. Some of the fakes have the same movement as the real item. It's all about the branding. If you want to know what time it is, get a solar-powered Casio G-Shock that corrects from WWV and similar time sources. Costs $89.[1] Requires no user attention. More accurate than any mechanical watch. [1] https://www.amazon.com/G-Shock-AWG-M100-1ACR-Tough…

> Some of the fakes have the same movement as the real item.

Not just "some," many of them do, in fact.

A lot of low end "luxury" watches don't even have custom movements, just standard ETAs. Chinese factories can produce clones of the ETA 2824 and 2836 movements, so you can get a fake watch with the exact same movement for a fraction of the price. If you ever decide you want COSC-level timing, you can just buy an ETA and swap it in.

Factories are also producing high-quality replicas of in-house movements such as the Rolex 3132 -- I say "replicas" because they can take the same parts that you'd use to repair a genuine movement. Once you're at that level, you need a loupe and a mental encyclopedia to be able to figure out what's going on and which is real.

Edit: Replaced "China" to clarify that it's not a national aim or anything like that.

> G-shock

Ironically, the fake industry doesn't just apply to mechanical watches -- even G-shocks are faked quite well. You can buy them from $5-10 quite often because the base parts are just that cheap.

Re: The attack of the SuperFakes

#58

Post by sliken »

at-fates-hands wrote: post #48
FooHentai wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>the high end Magura hydraulic disc brakes squealed constantly Pretty standard for the pads that are designed not to fade out on you under prolonged, heavy use. Sound is not a factor for race-performance gear. You probably also found their performance pretty crap when they were cold. Performance pads on cars have similar characteristics.

> You probably also found their performance pretty crap when they were cold. I did find this to be true. We tried "baking" them several times at the shop. It did help some for a few days and then went back to squealing. I just put up with after a while. When I finally switched over to SRAM I didn't get any more squealing.

There's a reason why $8-$10k bikes switched from the boutique brake brands to almost entirely SRAM or Shimano.

Re: The attack of the SuperFakes

#59

Post by sliken »

at-fates-hands wrote: post #21
foobarrio wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of the advantages of the "better" construction aren't seen until the watch is older. An acrylic glass vs saphire glass crystal on a watch both look the same when new. Over 10 years, they will look much different. Heat-treated blued steel watch hands supposedly rust much less compared to the chemically treated blued hands. I am not sure if this justifies the price difference of a $50 fake vs $5,000 Rolex. I've n…

> I am not sure if this justifies the price difference of a $50 fake vs $5,000 Rolex. I owned a five year old Rolex Submariner and had it for about three years. You could tell it was a solid, well built watch. However, after the first six months, I found it was not keeping very accurate time. Sent it back to Rolex and they fixed it and sent it back. Was fine for another six months, then it started again. Sent it back…

Like most things, different companies bring different things to the high end market. Companies bring different things to the high end bike market. So you can choose from lightest, best race team, flashiest, most durable, best service, best suspension, best design, etc. If you are lucky sometimes more than one. I recommend you take a trip to the most serious trail near you. I think you'll find the popularity of bikes that you actually see on the trail is unrelated to marketing, unrelated to what you see in the bike magazines, and unrelated to what you'd guess by visiting bike stores.

If at all possible I'd look at a more famous place like the popular trails around Tahoe, Downievilla, Moab, North Shore, etc.

For my last bike my wish list was: lifetime frame warranty, threaded (not pressed) bottom bracket, and boost. Other than that I just wanted the one that felt the best. Took me 3 demos of 2 hours each to finally decide.

If you are looking for most reliable I'd check the rentals. If the bike survives a season of rentals without a prohibitive amount of expensive maintenance and parts it will likely last you a life time.

I can assure you that fox forks can last over 5 years without maintenance, but the recommended maintenance schedule is somewhere around annual or 100 to 1000 hours of riding or so.

Current high end disc brakes from SRAM or Shimano can be squeal free under most conditions, which is one of the reasons a large fraction of the high end bikes have switched to them.

Re: The attack of the SuperFakes

#60

Post by adamcccc »

dreamfactored wrote: post #47
ChrisClark wrote: post #13

I know a very wealthy businessman in China, he's expected to wear expensive watches, dress the part, etc. But he just buys fakes all the time. It looks real enough to impress, and he saves a lot of money.

The business guys who are into watches tend to have a good look at each others, talk watch collecting for a while, and can usually tell fakes.

If they're poor fakes, yes. But if they're like the ones mentioned in this article, there would be no way of telling without bringing a microscope with you.
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