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The attack of the SuperFakes

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Re: The attack of the SuperFakes

#41

I see people crying about high quality fakes, and I interpret it as the initial problem with the luxury goods market: they’re bullshit and overvalued. If your product can easily be replaced by a much lower price knock off, what you’ve made is something of no actual value, and you get what you deserve.

There are people who would slap you in the face for talking about their work like that. You're completely ignoring the immense R&D costs that go into creating innovative, original products.

There are also people who want you to think they sunk immense amounts of money and time into a product.

That someone would slap you for having a healthy skepticism about their claims doesn't inspire faith in said claims.

Re: The attack of the SuperFakes

#42

In a way, I guess this is a form of 'luxury tax'. You can buy an excellent watch for under $30 at any Wal-Mart. It'll come with a no-hassle warranty, will be handsome in appearance and will function flawlessly. But it won't be a 'luxury good' and it never will be.

I beg to differ :). For $30 you can buy a quarz-watch which will be quite accurate and work for some time. For a really well-made and durable basic quarz watch you have to pay a bit more. And far beyond that, you can easily see where the money goes if you handle a more expensive watch.

The question is: what is luxury? Is it anything beyond owning the most basic device that will perform its task for a short period in time? Is wanting a decent robustness and longlevity a luxury? I don't dispute that high-end watches have a high silliness-level as they are extremely expensive for little to no gained practical value.

Re: The attack of the SuperFakes

#43
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, that is wrong. Fakes are cheaper for two reasons: they are less well made - which may not show on the new item without a lab. Like how do you check the quality of the metal compounds used? And of course it infringes on all the IP of the creator. The fakers don't have to spend any R&D expense, they carbon copy. Yes, there is a large markup on luxury items, but in most cases when you buy fakes, you don't get the sa…

How do we know the original is more well made than the fake? You trust the brand.

We don't "know" it, but that is the usual experience. Why should someone put more effort and cost in making a fake? Typical fakes - and lets not even get started on replacement parts for cars or even airplanes - are not only carbon copies to save the design effort, they are not using the same production processes. And these are very important insuring the quality of the product. Fakes might use cheaper alloys, the production process itself might not be as required and quality control missing. And so a fake bolt can have only the fraction of the load capacity of the original one.

Edit: And of course, the beauty with a fake is, that if it fails, the blame does not fall onto the producer of the fake, but even possibly of the original brand ribbed of... another incentive not to make overly well built fakes.

Re: The attack of the SuperFakes

#44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Rolex does have a better bracelet than the SARBs. I bet the chapter ring on your SARB033 has inconsistent spacing between its marks.

That's why I put mine on a snazzy leather strap ;-) I wonder how low in the price range you have to get before you have visibly uneven chapter ring marks. I think I can print a perfect one on paper on the laser printer here at work. Although the ring on my sarb is not perfectly aligned.

My sarb035 has uneven marks. The minute marks are clearly made in a separate step from the subminute marks, but they're also inconsistently spaced between (different amounts of space left and right of the minute mark, but it's different for each minute too). It's almost like there's somebody manually turning a machine and eyeballing the angle. That might in fact be true... The same is true of every high-res picture of a sarb033 and 035 I've seen. I have a vague memory you can see chapter ring problems with some more expensive models, but it looks like the new 41mm Presage has a perfect chapter ring.

My rule at this point is to avoid Seiko chapter rings, unless it's a Grand Seiko or I can see it in-store.

I'd bet Casio has perfect chapter rings at every price.

Re: The attack of the SuperFakes

#45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's why I put mine on a snazzy leather strap ;-) I wonder how low in the price range you have to get before you have visibly uneven chapter ring marks. I think I can print a perfect one on paper on the laser printer here at work. Although the ring on my sarb is not perfectly aligned.

My sarb035 has uneven marks. The minute marks are clearly made in a separate step from the subminute marks, but they're also inconsistently spaced between (different amounts of space left and right of the minute mark, but it's different for each minute too). It's almost like there's somebody manually turning a machine and eyeballing the angle. That might in fact be true... The same is true of every high-res picture o…

I've never noticed an uneven chapter ring! You're going to make me obsessed with staring at my watches. I'm honestly staring at mine and it looks fine. I think I can now see some lines look closer to the minute slashes than others but I don't know if that's because I am looking so hard for unevenness or what. I'll pull out the jeweler's loupe and compare it to my other watches when I get home. I think the watch would work a bit better without a chapter ring at all or at least without the sub-minute hashes. The chapter ring adds sportiness to a watch that otherwise looks a bit dressy.

Re: The attack of the SuperFakes

#46
post #29

This is not just limited to watches, of course. I'm an avid collector of headphones. One of my favorite legendary headphones is the Sony MDR V6 [1]. I made about 3 purchases before I could get my hands on a real one. Even some popular retailers sell fakes unknowingly. The fakes are so good that most of the time you wouldn't even know [2]. And they only keep improving. There was once I spotted a fake in a Sony showroo…

There seems to be at least some differing cultural values. I've had experiences with tea houses in TW/CN where the tea that is served is not really what I ordered and instead of being embarrassed or apologetic about it, they are impressed that I can even tell the difference! My friend had someone brew the same tea in different ways and try to sell it to him at different prices. When called out the guy seemed delighted at the challenge!

Re: The attack of the SuperFakes

#47

I know a very wealthy businessman in China, he's expected to wear expensive watches, dress the part, etc. But he just buys fakes all the time. It looks real enough to impress, and he saves a lot of money.

The business guys who are into watches tend to have a good look at each others, talk watch collecting for a while, and can usually tell fakes.

Re: The attack of the SuperFakes

#48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I am not sure if this justifies the price difference of a $50 fake vs $5,000 Rolex. I owned a five year old Rolex Submariner and had it for about three years. You could tell it was a solid, well built watch. However, after the first six months, I found it was not keeping very accurate time. Sent it back to Rolex and they fixed it and sent it back. Was fine for another six months, then it started again. Sent it back…

>the high end Magura hydraulic disc brakes squealed constantly Pretty standard for the pads that are designed not to fade out on you under prolonged, heavy use. Sound is not a factor for race-performance gear. You probably also found their performance pretty crap when they were cold. Performance pads on cars have similar characteristics.

> You probably also found their performance pretty crap when they were cold.

I did find this to be true.

We tried "baking" them several times at the shop. It did help some for a few days and then went back to squealing. I just put up with after a while.

When I finally switched over to SRAM I didn't get any more squealing.

Re: The attack of the SuperFakes

#49

I know a very wealthy businessman in China, he's expected to wear expensive watches, dress the part, etc. But he just buys fakes all the time. It looks real enough to impress, and he saves a lot of money.

The business guys who are into watches tend to have a good look at each others, talk watch collecting for a while, and can usually tell fakes.

The business guys who are into watches tend to buy fakes that can fool people like them.

FTFY

Re: The attack of the SuperFakes

#50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We all knowingly support software patents with the businesses we work with. This is no different. These brands were there first and did the research and development pursuant to establishing what is a good user experience and most-desirable in a handbag, watch, et cetera.

No, those handbags and watches are bought simply because they allow the buyer to signal 'status'. If people with less money also get to signal that same status then the original loses its value. That's really all there is to it, a good user experience doesn't come in to play at all (most of that stuff is unusable anyway) and the 'most desirable' bit is exactly that: status.

It's about design, and design is inherently about quality and value. It's the reason you might choose to pay more for a handmade Italian shirt made in a small workshop that has been running forever compared to a mass-produced one made with the cheapest labour in Myanmar (though functionally equivalent at a basic level). The Italian shirt will have better fabric, stitching, a more expensive split-yoke that hangs better on your body - real tangible things. Design only denotes status via knowledge of this value, not by having the money to afford it per se. So it's more a marker of education and sophistication. That does mean moving up Maslow's hierarchy so there is an economic element but that's not the essence of it. Sure I would need more money to buy the handmade shirt from the Tuscan workshop, but I would also need to know about it in the first place and why it might be worth paying more - it's really more about knowledge than money. So are Adidas any better than low cost no-name trainers or knockoffs? For a kid the answer is unequivocal and you are socially dead without the original; I hover between the two personally.

Design is not about 1%er luxury or fashion fads - it's really important at a national level. Obviously there is soft power with its indirect effects, but there is also the direct economy. Good design eventually tends to become commoditised and so there is economic value in being able to create new design - this is actually a vital process for every developed economy not to be crushed by whichever country is offering the cheapest labour.

An example is suitcase manufacturer Rimowa. If you look at their website it's a history of innovation in their field for the last 100 years, from aluminium trunks in the 1930s, to watertight luggage in the 70s. Still if you want a super expensive very high quality aluminium suitcase, they don't have competition, I guess due to that requiring pretty specialised production and expensive raw materials. If you buy one from them, they will repair it and knock dents out for free for lifetime (likewise Hermes will clean and press their ties for free, a difficult job which can easily ruin a silk tie) - so very high quality and standards. Maybe one day you will be able to buy a near-enough Asian copy for very cheap, but until then, this German company has the whole world's business for really nice aluminium cases. Rimowa also made a materials innovation in 2000 with polycarbonate suitcases - extremely lightweight, flexible, and near unbreakable from impact. For quite a while they were the only ones to make them. Recently however, that's been commoditised and you can buy cheap knockoffs which are fairly close to the original at a functional level. So now Rimowa have to find the next innovation as the cycle repeats to find a new USP for their products (e.g. now they are starting to get into trackable luggage with electronic airline tags).

That's Rimowa, but each company in a developed country within a global economy cannot compete on being cheapest, and instead needs to follow this process of competing on intellectual capital to stay in business. It requires at least a society with high levels of education in design, and a functioning legal system covering IP. China are now also starting to face this reality as they cease to provide the cheapest labour globally and have a growing middle class to support - and you'll therefore see increasing focus on design, innovation, quality, and finally IP even.

To your original complaint, you do sometimes hear of flashy gaudy things which are supposed to signal status via cost (tacos made with gold leaf and caviar, diamond-encrusted phones, gold-plated ferraris etc) - but you'll notice that those are considered poor design, never get taken up and commoditised, and only have economic value as marketing tools to get gawpers in for lower price items. They don't ever represent real IP in the way that the ipad, or high quality luxury goods do, but are instead held up as anti-patterns (which is why we hear about them).

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