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Why is computer science a sausage fest?

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Re: Why is computer science a sausage fest?

#51

Post by andrew1 »

dieterrams wrote: post #42
tkahn6 wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know about that. Since we're going on anecdotal evidence, out of my 25 or so friends who play videogames, I'm the only one who programs. An analog to your statement would be: "I like movies" often translates into "I want to work in the film industry"

Note that I'm using "often" to mean "happens with statistically significant frequency," as opposed to something like "happens most of the time." > An analog to your statement would be: "I like movies" often translates into "I want to work in the film industry" But that's actually true, with the most desired movie-inspired career being actor/actress. The difference is that people give up this idea a lot more easily, b…

Note then that you were probably looking for a word like 'occasionally' or 'sometimes' rather than 'often'. The phenomenon you were outlining would only happen with a tiny fraction of video game enthusiasts, so regardless of its statictical significance it wouldn't be described as happening 'often'.

Re: Why is computer science a sausage fest?

#52

Post by tkahn6 »

derefr wrote: post #45
tkahn6 wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know about that. Since we're going on anecdotal evidence, out of my 25 or so friends who play videogames, I'm the only one who programs. An analog to your statement would be: "I like movies" often translates into "I want to work in the film industry"

I remember an article on HN a while ago, that partitioned people into "people that are interested in One Thing, Everything, or Nothing." For the people interested in One Thing or Nothing, your comment sounds perfectly rational; but for the people interested in Everything, that's exactly how it is. "I like movies, books, games, music, math, tall buildings, rockets, genetically-engineered plants, [...] and so I want to…

I too am interested in a lot of things. But it would be a trivial exercise for me to name something you're not interested in.

Re: Why is computer science a sausage fest?

#53

Post by stretchwithme »

Confusion wrote: post #49
stretchwithme wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

except for the whole women are "not doctors" thing.

That depends on whether they go on to become doctors, veterinarians and dentists instead of assistants to those. The fact that someone has a certain education does not preclude them from ending up in a more assistive job related to the education. In fact, if women are still underrepresented among new doctors, veterinarians and dentists, that would be a likely explanation.

Too bad there's no way we can find out. If we had some kind of a computer where we search for the answer, perhaps the confusion would subside.

Re: Why is computer science a sausage fest?

#54

Post by Confusion »

philwelch wrote: post #30

On someone's complaint about Google setting up a special grant program for women, OP writes: This stinks of jealousy. Why not be happy for the female students? Why rain on someone else’s parade? Something good happening to someone else seems to disgust fringley. Frankly, it comes off as childish. That's a terrible argument. Can't you say that about any form of discrimination? "So what if all the nice houses and neigh…

Let me first say that you are right that her comparison of 'cowboy' vs. 'good developer' is completely ridiculous. Talk about her prejudices showing in conjuring up that straw man. I've never worked with any developer that fitted in the cowboy category, while most did their best to fit in the 'good developer' category. However:

  Can't you say that about any form of discrimination?
She could, but that's not what she is saying. She's saying it about this form of reverse discrimination.

You implicitly assume 'forms of discrimination' are interchangeable and you consequently draw a completely skewed analogy. 'Female students in CS' are the party being discriminated against, while 'white people' are not suffering from discrimination (when compared to 'black people'; we're comparing in general; I'm not saying individual 'white people' don't ever experience discrimination: I'm saying it happens much when compared to the amount of discrimination black people suffer). That's why your argument is wrong: we're trying to offset discrimination against women here and we're not trying to defend the continued discrimination against some other party (note: you have to look at the situation before this particular instance of reverse discrimination is instituted: this instance cannot be defended by itself).

Let me repeat that: female students in CS are being discriminated against. Almost nobody is doing that on purpose, but research in discrimination against women is crystal clear on this. There are many cognitive biases in our culture that prevent women from entering CS and becoming successful in it. We need positive discrimination to offset those cultural biases. Someone complaining about the unfairness of 'women-only' grants fails to understand the deeprootedness of prejudice.

This, BTW, is a trap sophisticated men keep falling into. We tend to think there isn't much discrimination against women: after all, aren't we being completely fair against our female colleagues? The answer is simply: no, we probably are not, even if we do our best. The aggregate result of even very small amounts of prejudice are still noticable.

Re: Why is computer science a sausage fest?

#55

Post by Tichy »

moultano wrote: post #29
kylec wrote: post #3

CS education works best for people who already know how to code before they begin. CS teaches the theory behind a practice in which they assume you already have some skill. Women are less likely to already know, because they don’t play video games as much. This does not make any sense. How does playing video games translate to coding skill?

One anecdote that I heard from people involved with the CMU admissions criteria for CS. In addition to GPA, leadership skills, etc. they used to also look for something interesting technical that you'd done prior to college. They have now removed that criteria from the selection process because they found that it did not correlate with success upon coming to CMU, but it did correlate with gender.

Well at least in Germany, there isn't any admissions process for CS. The quality of education is good, too.

We don't have significantly more women in CS than other countries, I think.

Re: Why is computer science a sausage fest?

#56

Post by Tichy »

I must admit some parts of that annoy me. You can't argue with the sexist jokes and assumptions of being a secretary. But not wanting to be a Cowboy Coder? What does it mean, women coders always comment their source code? I don't think I have actually ever met a Cowboy Coder (I am 38 now, 10 years professional software developer, coding since I am 12), so I seriously doubt their mysthical existence is a significant deterrent for women in CS.

Also things like "computer games are for men" - well if you really want it, create games for women. Nobody is preventing people (men or women) from creating games for women, or in general, from creating the environment for learning and working they desire.

If it is true that it is harder for women to get CS jobs, it would be a serious concern. I'd like to see more hard data about it, though. The people I know all would love to hire more women.

At the company we currently work for, we also have one woman coder (this is 100000% more women coders than I usually see at companies). But thanks to Scrum, we have several female designers in the teams, so at least the overall atmosphere is not all masculine. That's one of the few things I consider good about Scrum. By overall atmosphere I just mean a lone woman does not have to feel weird. I don't in general encounter penis jokes or whatever in masculine environments either (also no Star Trek posters - most offices simply have blue carpet, some unhappy plants, desks, computers).

Re: Why is computer science a sausage fest?

#57

Post by wisty »

Even if women (statistically) suck at programming (a common claim here), I'm pretty sure that even the good ones are turned off programming because of the lack of female co-workers, discrimination, and other factors.

I'd guess that the average women in technology is underrated (only the real enthusiasts get through), and talking them down is going to lead to further discrimination.

Would I suggest that CS departments aim for 50% female students? Not this decade, and maybe not ever. But should women be given more credit, more opportunities, and more encouragement to start their own projects (rather than just contributing)? Hell yeah.

http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/List_of_women_in_FLOSS

Re: Why is computer science a sausage fest?

#58

Post by derefr »

tkahn6 wrote: post #52
derefr wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I remember an article on HN a while ago, that partitioned people into "people that are interested in One Thing, Everything, or Nothing." For the people interested in One Thing or Nothing, your comment sounds perfectly rational; but for the people interested in Everything, that's exactly how it is. "I like movies, books, games, music, math, tall buildings, rockets, genetically-engineered plants, [...] and so I want to…

I too am interested in a lot of things. But it would be a trivial exercise for me to name something you're not interested in.

Well, only relatively. I think the test is "given immortality, would you get bored?" After exhausting all the stuff I like, I'd learn to like more stuff.

Re: Why is computer science a sausage fest?

#59

Post by Tichy »

wisty wrote: post #57

Even if women (statistically) suck at programming (a common claim here), I'm pretty sure that even the good ones are turned off programming because of the lack of female co-workers, discrimination, and other factors. I'd guess that the average women in technology is underrated (only the real enthusiasts get through), and talking them down is going to lead to further discrimination. Would I suggest that CS departments…

"should women be given more credit, more opportunities, and more encouragement to start their own projects (rather than just contributing)?"

What exactly does that even mean, though? And wouldn't it also be rather patronizing?

Btw, I don't think anybody ever encouraged me to start my own projects. Society in generally encourages you to become an office drone, no matter if you are male or female..

Re: Why is computer science a sausage fest?

#60

Post by Confusion »

adamesque wrote: post #35
alanh wrote: post #19

> On the other hand, he assumes those women didn’t deserve to be sent to JSConf. Why should he assume that? Utter crap. That’s clearly not what the critics are concerned about. The women may indeed deserve to go — but no more than men who are not being offered the same grants. This is what is objectionable. This, and the implication that women need pushed into the field or artificially assisted, strike some as sexist…

Except, they're _not_ just assumptions of sexism. You should at least skim the MIT study she refers to in her article ( http://web.mit.edu/fnl/women/women.html ). It was an eye-opening, empirical study showing that discrimination did exist – and that it didn't look like ordinary bigotry. I can't help but think that it's only possible to get worked up about reverse discrimination if you don't believe that the "forward…

You can also get worked up about reverse discrimination if you fail to understand how it differs from regular discrimination. Using the same word for different things can throw off the mind in surprising ways.
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