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Kaspersky Lab Has Been Working with Russian Intelligence

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Re: Kaspersky Lab Has Been Working with Russian Intelligence

#51

Post by mwfunk »

coldtea wrote: post #46
mwfunk wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not that simple by a long shot. Minus any information or critical thinking, no one ever thinks of themselves as the bad guy. I'm an American and I can tell you no end of past and present instances in our history in which we were the bad guys in a particular situation. I don't defend America if I think the US government is taking a morally, ethically, or intellectually wrong position, or if the US government does…

> When people deflect criticism of their country by saying some other country is just as bad, they're totally missing the point. Saying that everyone does shitty things still doesn't make it OK for anyone to do shitty things. No, but if one's country does 10x the shitty things, they don't get to single out the other country as "evil". > If all you've got is whataboutism, you are literally trying to defend indefensibl…

Well sure. That's my whole point. If the US engages in what I consider immoral or otherwise indefensible behavior, the fact that I am an American has no bearing on how harshly I judge that behavior. I hold Russians to the same standards as I hold myself, therefore I expect them to denounce the actions of their government when appropriate.

I don't give two shits whether or not some other country (including my own) has engaged in the same shitty behavior that some other country that I'm currently worried about is currently engaged in. Shitty behavior is shitty behavior no matter who's doing it, and I have zero tolerance for it.

If Russia has mysterious patterns of Putin's political opponents getting imprisoned or murdered on a regular basis, the fact that some American politicians may have done something similarly shitty at some point had absolutely zero affect on me. Yeah, it's just as shitty when America does it. What's your fucking point? I'm speaking out as a human being, not as an American calling out Russia. Accusations of hypocrisy mean nothing to me, or anyone in this debate (I would hope at least). I don't complain about Russia because I think America is better, I complain about Russia because Putin is one of the most colossal fucking assholes in the entire fucking world right now.

Re: Kaspersky Lab Has Been Working with Russian Intelligence

#52

Post by [deleted] »

coldtea wrote: post #46
mwfunk wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not that simple by a long shot. Minus any information or critical thinking, no one ever thinks of themselves as the bad guy. I'm an American and I can tell you no end of past and present instances in our history in which we were the bad guys in a particular situation. I don't defend America if I think the US government is taking a morally, ethically, or intellectually wrong position, or if the US government does…

> When people deflect criticism of their country by saying some other country is just as bad, they're totally missing the point. Saying that everyone does shitty things still doesn't make it OK for anyone to do shitty things. No, but if one's country does 10x the shitty things, they don't get to single out the other country as "evil". > If all you've got is whataboutism, you are literally trying to defend indefensibl…

[deleted]

Re: Kaspersky Lab Has Been Working with Russian Intelligence

#54

Post by commenter98456 »

adventured wrote: post #34
commenter98456 wrote: post #33

He who smelt it dealt it? Crowdstrike, FireEye ,Cobaltstrike,symantec,etc... are they CIA fronts as well? As an american, why would I trust the CIA/NSA over the SVR/GRU? I wish I didn't have to ask that. but the fact is, and I'm sure some will agree - It is the CIA/NSA machine that can make my life here in America hell, not the SVR/GRU. I can understand the concern when it comes to critical infrastructure and governm…

> As an american, why would I trust the CIA/NSA over the SVR/GRU? Because one is tasked - in theory - with protecting you, the other is tasked solely with protecting Russians (at your expense as necessary). It's that simple. And if you're going to claim the NSA never does anything to keep Americans safe, it would degrade your credibility toward zero.

They do plenty to protect what they consider is worthy of protection. which often leaves me out. Protection in their sense includes depriving me of basic rights and freedoms (so long as I'm "Safe").

It's not their official duties that I find dubious but their historical and ongoing ignorance of them. If they simply did their job I wouldn't even need to ask that question.

I'd probably ask the same of SVR/GRU if I lived in Russia.

If the NSA/CIA were doing their job, they wouldn't spy on their own people and they certainly wouldn't make secret deals with security companies and inflitrate their ranks to have a strategic advantage. Letting security companies independently do their job would be "protecting America" backdoors, hoarding exploits, influencing weak crypto,etc... I'm sorry but the russians don't even have the ability to do some of that even if they have the will.

GRU or NSA for both "ends justify means" , if you're on the "ends" side, pick software backdoored by your home country. if you're on the "means" side, pick the other guy.

I suppose it's time to consider what "collateral damage" in the sense of geopolitical computer security is.

Re: Kaspersky Lab Has Been Working with Russian Intelligence

#55

Post by commenter98456 »

cronjobber wrote: post #37
commenter98456 wrote: post #33

He who smelt it dealt it? Crowdstrike, FireEye ,Cobaltstrike,symantec,etc... are they CIA fronts as well? As an american, why would I trust the CIA/NSA over the SVR/GRU? I wish I didn't have to ask that. but the fact is, and I'm sure some will agree - It is the CIA/NSA machine that can make my life here in America hell, not the SVR/GRU. I can understand the concern when it comes to critical infrastructure and governm…

True. Sadly. Alas, while Russian (and Chinese) general disinterest in f'ing with you does help, their equally developed general disinterest in your well-being means they might have incentive to sell or trade with entities more... interested.

For private individuals that move makes sense. For nation states (with the exception of NK because they're so broke) - a financial incentive isn't enough.

Petya with M.E.DOC is a good example, Russians burned quite a significant attack infrastructure there. They could have sold that access to "someone" but the price (under $1mil in my opinion) isn't worth the sort of chaos it caused in ukraine (majority of companies in ukraine used that software I believe). My point is, if they did backdoor kasperskyOS, it wouldn't be used for a financial end, maybe to "show off" their capability, a retaliation to your government screwing with them,etc... but certainly not a financial end.

Frankly, I'd be happy if governments stay out of securiing civilians when it comes to computers and the internet. Tired of being a meaningless pawn to be discarded whenever convenient to do so.

Re: Kaspersky Lab Has Been Working with Russian Intelligence

#56

Post by jacquesm »

linkregister wrote: post #38
freehunter wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think it's entirely unfair. We know that the Russian government sponsors cyber attacks. They're not the only ones, we know the USA and China and North Korea and Israel and probably every other country does too. It all has to be taken into account. If I buy Cisco gear, what's the likelihood that it has an NSA tap in it? [1] If I buy Check Point gear, what's the likelihood that it has a Mossad tap in it? [2] If…

Your point is undermined by your links. The first describes a remote network exploit , which is not developed by coöperation or coercion. Exploits take advantage of a software vulnerability to insert additional capabilities (espionage). I think you wanted to find a link describing the process of interdiction , which was implied to exist in the Snowden documents. The second link is just a public denial by Check Point.…

> A discovered back door would destroy Kaspersky, Huawei, Cisco, Check Point, etc.; nobody would renew their contracts with that massive loss of trust.

Given that a backdoor could look like an undiscovered exploit I fail to see how the one would result in the other, besides that where will you turn? To one of the other parties... Consider this the present situation and almost nobody has moved away from their vendors. Except maybe Juniper (not in your list) I don't see any of these brands as damaged (yet).

Re: Kaspersky Lab Has Been Working with Russian Intelligence

#57

Post by coldtea »

mwfunk wrote: post #51
coldtea wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> When people deflect criticism of their country by saying some other country is just as bad, they're totally missing the point. Saying that everyone does shitty things still doesn't make it OK for anyone to do shitty things. No, but if one's country does 10x the shitty things, they don't get to single out the other country as "evil". > If all you've got is whataboutism, you are literally trying to defend indefensibl…

Well sure. That's my whole point. If the US engages in what I consider immoral or otherwise indefensible behavior, the fact that I am an American has no bearing on how harshly I judge that behavior. I hold Russians to the same standards as I hold myself, therefore I expect them to denounce the actions of their government when appropriate. I don't give two shits whether or not some other country (including my own) has…

That's the thing though. If indeed "shitty behavior is shitty behavior no matter who's doing it, and [you] have zero tolerance for it" then he is not "one of the most colossal fucking assholes in the entire fucking world right now" but just an average, run of the mill, arsehole.

Saying "shitty behavior is shitty, doesn't matter who is doing it" is meaningful if indeed those proclaiming don't in practice restrict their criticism to a single party. If people critique many times as much with much worse language X compared to their critique of Y (especially if Y does worse to begin with), then it shows the opposite: that some shitty behavior is more excused than others.

Especially if the result of one kind of critique is just some tame protesting in the media and/or the streets ("Stop Bush's war", "Obama didn't do what he promised", "Trump is this and that", etc.), whereas the other criticism is aligned with and brings with it a whole military machine, sanctions against the country, diplomatic pressure, etc.

Re: Kaspersky Lab Has Been Working with Russian Intelligence

#58

Post by PhantomGremlin »

zeep wrote: post #36
marcusjt wrote: post #4

Whatever next? Have American AV companies been "Working with American Intelligence"? That would be just as shocking... ;)

We know that Google and Apple are working with the American Intelligence and they could be considered AV companies when you look at some of their mobile OSes features...

We know that Google and Apple are working with the American Intelligence

Citation needed.

Re: Kaspersky Lab Has Been Working with Russian Intelligence

#59

Post by captainmuon »

the-dude wrote: post #18
captainmuon wrote: post #13

Before we entered The Darkest Timeline, NSA used to be known for helping American companies with their encryption and cybersecurity, and preventing corporate espionage. I'm one of the first when it comes to criticizing overreach of governments and intelligence agencies, but I do recognize that they do a lot of legitimate and positive work.

Preventing corporate espionage : priceless! "The paper said the agency "lifted all the faxes and phone-calls between Airbus, the Saudi national airline and the Saudi Government" to gain this information." Agency : NSA. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/820758.stm

Well, prevent espionage from other countries on US firms of course. And there is always the discrepancy between stated goals and reality.

Re: Kaspersky Lab Has Been Working with Russian Intelligence

#60

Post by codedokode »

zeep wrote: post #36
marcusjt wrote: post #4

Whatever next? Have American AV companies been "Working with American Intelligence"? That would be just as shocking... ;)

We know that Google and Apple are working with the American Intelligence and they could be considered AV companies when you look at some of their mobile OSes features...

Yes, they try to make their users store the data in the "cloud". Maybe they do it in hope to get profit but maybe NSA wants to keep the data from people around the world on servers in US.

Google should allow users to use their own "cloud".

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