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Laptop Ban a Reaction to X-Ray Equipment Stolen by ISIS

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Re: Laptop Ban a Reaction to X-Ray Equipment Stolen by ISIS

#51

Post by coredog64 »

jaclaz wrote: post #47
runamok wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My wife works in import/export compliance. There are many regulations associated with many types of technology requiring you to get licenses, "know your customer", etc. I would guess the latest and greatest of this tech for would be governed by EAR if not ITAR regulations. ref: http://ooc.usc.edu/overview-ear-and-itar

Yep, but that applies (maybe) to the US. What about any other country, for the sake of the example, Wherevereristan ? Do they have the same rules?

If you fly into the US, it is more than likely that not only will you have to clear airport security provided by the host country, you will also have to go through security provided by the US. It will be US equipment and US citizens operating it.

So in that sense, if Whereveristan wants to sell the airport X-ray equipment they can get, it isn't going to be useful in determining what can pass US screening.

Re: Laptop Ban a Reaction to X-Ray Equipment Stolen by ISIS

#52

Post by kmonsen »

tsaoutourpants wrote: post #25
rwmj wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does swabbing work? I can imagine that the "batteries" (ie bomb) would be prepared, sealed and cleaned by one person, and then inserted into the laptop by another person so there's no contamination.

It's hard to remove all trace, but yes, in theory you could avoid it by being really careful. Then again, if you work in a "bomb factory," there's trace everywhere, so it may be quite difficult. Also, the "turn on your device" thing they sometimes do offers some mitigation against this. Obviously, you can think of ways that may defeat this too, but to defeat all of the security, accurately, in one small package that…

Asking people to turn on the device seems stupid. Just do half battery half bomb and make it functional enough it will work for 10 min.

Re: Laptop Ban a Reaction to X-Ray Equipment Stolen by ISIS

#53

Post by rtkwe »

koenigdavidmj wrote: post #3

Hey look, a security crisis that can only be fixed by requiring that we prove our devices are functional, most likely by turning them on, logging in, and showing that there are a few documents present. And in some cases, extra manual evaluation will be required, entailing taking that logged-in laptop into a back room for further inspection. They won't copy everything onto a disk of their own---honest!

Even forcing people to turn on devices doesn't really fix it. Just keep three (for proper voltage so you don't have to add any boost circuitry) of the cells in your battery bomb and it'll be more than enough to pass their screening.

Re: Laptop Ban a Reaction to X-Ray Equipment Stolen by ISIS

#54

Post by _ph_ »

kmonsen wrote: post #52
tsaoutourpants wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's hard to remove all trace, but yes, in theory you could avoid it by being really careful. Then again, if you work in a "bomb factory," there's trace everywhere, so it may be quite difficult. Also, the "turn on your device" thing they sometimes do offers some mitigation against this. Obviously, you can think of ways that may defeat this too, but to defeat all of the security, accurately, in one small package that…

Asking people to turn on the device seems stupid. Just do half battery half bomb and make it functional enough it will work for 10 min.

That would already cut the amount of explosives in half. Modern laptop batteries are not exactly huge to start with. So it is much less likely to do big damage to the airplane. Add to that, it is not trivial to make a battery half the size which still has enough voltage to power the laptop - you would need cells half the size for that. And all bombings of airplanes have been done with bombs in the cargo bay.

Re: Laptop Ban a Reaction to X-Ray Equipment Stolen by ISIS

#56

Post by petre »

subterfudge44 wrote: post #22
leggomylibro wrote: post #7

>So why was the stolen x-ray equipment kept a secret? I asked my source if there was some security reason for keeping the stolen x-ray equipment from the public, and was told, unequivocally, no. “It’s because the mom from the midwest planning to fly her kids to Disney would freak out. They are worried that people would stop flying if they knew.” Kind of ironic, because I've already stopped flying - not because I'm af…

> They are worried that people would stop flying if they knew. And that describes what the whole TSA thing is about. It is a theatre. There was no need to put laptop ban either because it is just as useless. One has to only check Quora answers on all sort of things people have taken through security which includes 2 full size Katana Swords, loaded guns, Fire starters, Ethanol bottles and various other items. I unders…

Nitrocellulose? One could turn a troller full of cotton underwear into a bomb. So are they going to ban underwear on flights next?

Re: Laptop Ban a Reaction to X-Ray Equipment Stolen by ISIS

#57

Post by digi_owl »

Animats wrote: post #32

The secrecy issue has gotten out of hand. The classic military view of secrecy is time-limited. "Where the ship was last week is unclassified. Where the ship was yesterday is confidential. Where the ship is now is secret. Where the ship will be tomorrow is top secret." The opposition will eventually find out what you're planning on doing. The goal is for them to find out the hard way, when incoming fire starts hittin…

> The anti-terrrorism community has adopted the intelligence community mindset. This is a problem.

Wonder how much that has to do with overlap between the two.

Today's terrorist may well have been yesterday's informat, and may well be an informant again tomorrow.

After all, the CIA was deeply involved in Afghanistan back when the USSR was fighting there. And many of the people that the CIA supported then later turned against USA.

Re: Laptop Ban a Reaction to X-Ray Equipment Stolen by ISIS

#58

Post by stevenwoo »

tsaoutourpants wrote: post #26
subterfudge44 wrote: post #24

One of the sad things about airport security is that there is no scope for private innovation. It is a military industrial complex of using substandard solutions for potentially non existent problems while wasting insane amount of money. May be there is a need for the security theatre but then we can at least get good at it. Can Elon Musk design a better airport security ?

Fuck Elon Musk, can you design a tool that would make airport security better? I bet in 15 minutes, most HN readers could come up with something that would be cheaper, more effective, and faster to use than the current tool set. There's indeed money to be made here (and good to be done), even if the easiest way would be to patent your idea and sell it to the military industrial complex you speak of. Fun fact: the par…

There is a model that we already know works in practice but it's not cheaper or faster and it would generate a lot of income for security/airport renovation companies at the cost of much higher ticket costs to pay for it - the Israeli model. https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2010/01/adopting_the_...

Re: Laptop Ban a Reaction to X-Ray Equipment Stolen by ISIS

#59

Post by openasocket »

kmonsen wrote: post #50
tsaoutourpants wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Fifth Amendment still applies in the "constitution free zone." The name is a bit exaggerated by the ACLU to make their point. No matter where you are, the U.S.government cannot force you to speak as a condition of flying home. Just be quiet rather than deceitful.

I don't think this is true. If some government agent tells the pilot you are a "security risk" for any reason you are not going on that plane or if you are already in it they will drag you out. The plane is a private property so you can be taken of for any reason.

For international travel the US doesn't have any say over who's flying to them from some other country. Though if you're a known terrorist or something be prepared to be arrested once you land. And once they've landed you can be dragged off the plane, but if you're a US citizen then cannot deport you. They can take you to prison, but not to another country.

Re: Laptop Ban a Reaction to X-Ray Equipment Stolen by ISIS

#60

Post by tyingq »

subterfudge44 wrote: post #22
leggomylibro wrote: post #7

>So why was the stolen x-ray equipment kept a secret? I asked my source if there was some security reason for keeping the stolen x-ray equipment from the public, and was told, unequivocally, no. “It’s because the mom from the midwest planning to fly her kids to Disney would freak out. They are worried that people would stop flying if they knew.” Kind of ironic, because I've already stopped flying - not because I'm af…

> They are worried that people would stop flying if they knew. And that describes what the whole TSA thing is about. It is a theatre. There was no need to put laptop ban either because it is just as useless. One has to only check Quora answers on all sort of things people have taken through security which includes 2 full size Katana Swords, loaded guns, Fire starters, Ethanol bottles and various other items. I unders…

A fair amount of the security isn't really adding anything useful anymore. 9/11 only worked because the passengers assumed it was a hijacking, and therefore, cooperating meant they would likely live. That's out the window now. Passengers now violently subdue anyone that even seems suspicious. Between that and the secure cockpit door, a bomb is about all they have left to do anything on a large scale. Even that is tricky. The size of bomb you can sneak on limits the effectiveness[1]. Basically, the "ROI" on attacking planes isn't what it once was.

[1] Yes, you can find examples where it worked. But you can also find examples where most passengers survive even extensive damage to the aircraft, like Aloha Airlines Flight 243 (not a bomb, but still). Or Daallo Airlines Flight 159, where the bomber only killed himself.

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