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Ask HN: 50 job applications, 15 interviews, 7 onsites, and no offer – what next?

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Re: Ask HN: 50 job applications, 15 interviews, 7 onsites, and no offer – what next?

#51
Look at the patterns. You are in a "product management" role yet you hate it. You are interviewing for a similar role, and they are all signaling that you are not a good fit. My guess is you are telegraphing to these prospective employers that you are desperate, that you will take whatever is out there.

Perhaps it's time for a career change. If you are not made for software engineering, perhaps QA? Maybe you strive for something more technical, maybe scrum master? Technical writer? Graphic designer? Technical evangelist? Sales engineer?

These are things only you know. Perhaps taking a personality assessment, or scanning blogs for career ideas are steps you can take. Maybe answering this question: If you could be an expert at anything, what would that be?

P.S.: I don't believe it is your accent, or your ethnicity. I've interviewed plenty of Indians, Russians, and Eastern Europeans over the years. If they can code and/or know their stuff, they get the job.

Re: Ask HN: 50 job applications, 15 interviews, 7 onsites, and no offer – what next?

#52
post #24

Regardless of whether you continue the job search or not, pick up that hobby. I love my job, but non-work hobbies keep me sane. Relying on career to be the sole provider of personal fulfillment is a recipe for an abusive relationship with your job.

+1 I am a software developer and I wrote and published a science fiction novel. I agree. Everyone needs diverse, away-from-work hobbies.

Re: Ask HN: 50 job applications, 15 interviews, 7 onsites, and no offer – what next?

#53
Simple questions :

- Where are you based, and are you legally able to work where you're applying without too much overhead? Sometimes a company may like you but not be willing to jump through hoops after they realize how hard it will be to hire you, in which case they still interview to check if your talent justifies the hassle.

- Are you always on time, and always replying fast to emails? Lack of punctuality hurts bad, especially in a management role.

- Do you have a tendency to blame your current environment or your co-workers in interviews? No one wants to work with someone who's going to blame them or their company.

- What do you answer to the classic "where do you see yourself in 10 years?" Interview questions? This has a very strong impact on any large company.

- How long did you stay in your previous and current gigs? Job hopping can be a red flag.

- Did you ever get to the salary negotiation phase? If so, were you the one asking first? A candidate asking for too much might not look attractive.

- What is the size of the organizations you apply to? Your experience might not match what they're looking for.

- How do you define product management? Product Management is such a wide net (Design / Management / understanding of tech/...) that what you're currently doing and what the companies are looking for might not match. This happens more often than we could expect.

To anyone else reading this, but looking for a programming job (and not product management like OP), add those questions to your list:

- Do you contribute to open source? A lack of contributions will prevent your interviewer from selling you properly to a team.

- How good are you with algorithms and data structures on a whiteboard? This is like a sport, and as backwards as it is, it is different from actual programming, so you should actually train interviewing as a separate skill if you're not proficient.

Finally, 15 interviews for 50 application is not terrible, answer those questions honestly and you're probably going to do better!

Re: Ask HN: 50 job applications, 15 interviews, 7 onsites, and no offer – what next?

#54
1) Look on the bright side. You have a current job.

2) How do you present yourself? Are you easy to talk to, relaxed, comfortable, confident?

3) Are you well qualified in the areas you are targeting? I'm not just talking about the job function, product management. I'm talking about the specific ecosystem of the products (web, mobile, cloud, hardware devices, etc.) and which industry segment (medical, energy, transportation, etc.)

4) Related to that, if you do have a specific area of expertise, maybe try going after just that area.

5) Really hope this is not part of it, but do you live in a bigoted or (sometimes a different thing) a non-diverse part of the country? If yes, that could be one piece of the puzzle. Not with every interview, but some of them. For that case, short of moving somewhere else, I guess it's mostly out of your hands. Again hopefully it's not this.

6) You didn't mention if you ended up interviewing for the other role they suggested, and if not, why not. Seems like they are offering you a chance to get in the door, so maybe you're just blind to what is being offered. You didn't say what was wrong with the other roles.

In any case to find out if it's related to question 2 above, maybe you should do some practice interviews with local friends or better yet experienced coaches. Could be eye opening if they are willing to give you frank feedback.

Re: Ask HN: 50 job applications, 15 interviews, 7 onsites, and no offer – what next?

#56

Not to be mean spirited, but it sounds like you either need to learn how to close or you are going for positions you really aren't a good fit for. I've gotten every job I've ever interviewed for that I really wanted. In the end, it's about perception and desire. If you don't go in acting like you deserve the job and can be an asset to the company, you are not likely to get an offer. You also have to be able to sell y…

if OP could only pick one piece of advice from this thread it should be this one. my 2 cents:

1. being able to demonstrate excitement is a huge bonus. i've interviewed a decent number of people. on average 0 were excited about any of the companies. maybe a third were what i could consider genuinely excited or passionate about the technology or the position.

2. taking a few minutes to ask what problems they have struggled with, or what they're working on now, gives you a "serendipitous" platform to sell yourself: take that opportunity to work with them and prove yourself.

Re: Ask HN: 50 job applications, 15 interviews, 7 onsites, and no offer – what next?

#57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"If the companies are worth their salt, they should be giving (or willing to give) you detailed feedback. _Especially_ if you got to a face-to-face interview. If they don't, then I'd consider that a lucky miss." Really? It's been my experience that companies will not give feedback, at least anything that could be considered detailed feedback, as a blanket policy. The perception at least is that giving feedback opens…

Yeah, this has been my experience. The one time I got a company to provide feedback, it was that I "didn't seem assertive enough", which really couldn't be further from the truth (I'm usually getting in hot water for being too assertive), so I assume that it was a randomly chosen from a grab bag of meaningless-but-legally-sanitized "useful feedback" phrases. Even if someone does provide feedback, it usually can't be…

We do recruitment software, and one of the features that just never seems to take life is asking managers why they have rejected a candidate - even though that would be extremely useful for fine tuning the process.

It seems people just don't like to be pinned down.

Re: Ask HN: 50 job applications, 15 interviews, 7 onsites, and no offer – what next?

#58

Not to be mean spirited, but it sounds like you either need to learn how to close or you are going for positions you really aren't a good fit for. I've gotten every job I've ever interviewed for that I really wanted. In the end, it's about perception and desire. If you don't go in acting like you deserve the job and can be an asset to the company, you are not likely to get an offer. You also have to be able to sell y…

> I've gotten every job I've ever interviewed for

I once said this to a friend. He then suggested maybe I wasn't being as ambitious as I could be in the roles I was seeking. Gave me some food for thought.

Re: Ask HN: 50 job applications, 15 interviews, 7 onsites, and no offer – what next?

#60
When I was working at a start up (not in the league of FAGM), which was just going to IPO 3 months later, I found on a network share a file that contained interview feedback for different people. Thats what companies do when they interview a dozen for a job; they compare candidates against each other. This info is not given out to the public. I can recall two profiles from that file: one, white with an MBA from Kellogg; the other, Indian with an MBA from Cornell. They picked the Kellogg guy as a contractor for first three months, later converted him into full time. That's when I realized I should not get an MBA, since I won't get admitted to H/S/W MBA programs, even tho these schools tell everyone to apply in order to reduce the acceptance rate.

The other issue is the kind of job you have: product management. Every guy in IT wanna move up; so, the first thing was told to these guys to get an MBA. (Now we have morning, evening and day time MBAs, on campus and off campus MBAs. Even Wharton is called MBA factory these days.) So, we have a glut of candidates in the product management.

Top tier start ups don't like to deal with non-elite candidates. Here, eliteness = which MBA school one went to--whether Stanford/Harvard/Wharton; which company did he work for, if any. I remember a guy here, who worked at Yahoo in product mgmt; he is not white, but born in America; he did not not have an MBA from H/S/W, but from somewhere else. FB interviewed him and rejected him later. I know of one who graduated from Stanford GSB, and joined FB in the product management just before FB went to public.

Product management jobs at top companies like Google and Facebook look for eliteness. So, just start talking to people, and get some referral and see how it goes.

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