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Fearful of Hacking, Dutch Will Count Ballots by Hand

nytimes.com

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Re: Fearful of Hacking, Dutch Will Count Ballots by Hand

#51

Post by kobeya »

pepve wrote: post #22

The article confuses two things. First there is voting by paper ballot and manually counting them. We have been doing that for about nine years now. Second is aggregating the votes from all the polling stations, this used to be done with software, but with this decision it will be done manually. The immediate reason for this is an investigation into the security of that software which concluded that it was not safe,…

Make the counts for individual precincts public. Then it doesn't matter how it is aggregated.

Re: Fearful of Hacking, Dutch Will Count Ballots by Hand

#52

Post by kens »

derefr wrote: post #16

There are options beyond "hand counting" and "computer software." IBM was founded, way back when, on what were basically electrical (but not electronic!) census-punch-card-tabulating machines. One could use a similar, or slightly improved, design just as easily, along with correspondent electrical "polling machines" that are essentially a grid of buttons hooked up to pre-patterned card punches. The whole design could…

Note that you're reinventing the Votomatic voting machine [1] which is used to punch holes in a standard-sized IBM punched card. It was invented in 1963 and has been used in multiple US elections.

I like IBM punched card equipment as much as anyone [2], but I feel obligated to point out that punched-card voting led to big problems in the 2000 election when ballots in Florida had "hanging chad" and the election ended up being decided by the Supreme Court. (I wonder what fraction of HN readers remember this, and what fraction consider this ancient history.)

[1] http://americanhistory.si.edu/vote/resources_votomatic.html

[2] http://www.righto.com/2016/05/inside-card-sorters-1920s-data...

Re: Fearful of Hacking, Dutch Will Count Ballots by Hand

#53

Post by mattnewton »

sidlls wrote: post #42
mattnewton wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You aren't wrong about the Democratic Party putting forth a weak candidate, but it is concerning that there weren't similar actions on the other side. The attacks were targeting a specific party alone and seem to be motivated by foreign geopolitical interests, not in the American public's interest. There is a reason we want equal time laws for example, because if I constantly hear one side of the argument, it doesn't…

It doesn't concern me at all. The Democratic Party isn't a branch of government. It's a private company. That so many treat it like it's a government organization is far more concerning than the motivations behind any hacks of one or both major parties.

While you are technically correct, do you want to live in a country run by private corporations or would you rather public pressure and regulations be able to influence the parties?

Re: Fearful of Hacking, Dutch Will Count Ballots by Hand

#54

Post by sidlls »

mattnewton wrote: post #53
sidlls wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn't concern me at all. The Democratic Party isn't a branch of government. It's a private company. That so many treat it like it's a government organization is far more concerning than the motivations behind any hacks of one or both major parties.

While you are technically correct, do you want to live in a country run by private corporations or would you rather public pressure and regulations be able to influence the parties?

I'd rather the latter. Which is why I don't care that the private company that is the DNC was hacked.

They don't succumb or respond to public pressure in any meaningful way.

Re: Fearful of Hacking, Dutch Will Count Ballots by Hand

#55

Post by r00fus »

wila wrote: post #7

This is due to a Dutch ethical hacker (Sijmen Ruwhof) investigating the way that our elections work. He had posted a great research document [0] that showed how bad our current system was. Two days later, we're back to paper. Thanks Sijmen :) [0] https://sijmen.ruwhof.net/weblog/1166-how-to-hack-the-upcomi...

Best news I've heard electorally for some time. They're even fully proportional voting.

Re: Fearful of Hacking, Dutch Will Count Ballots by Hand

#56

Post by EdHominem »

vkou wrote: post #45
rhcom2 wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The press "digging up dirt" is surely different than the illegal hacking and wholesale release of all private email correspondence. Deep Throat provided info on the current President's illegal actions to a journalist, not just "dirt". Even if we accept that it is better to know the info in the DNC leaks, it is still a big problem if a foreign government can wield its influence so easily through illegal computer intru…

Leaking the Trump tax return was illegal. There was nothing illegal in the tax return. The Snowden leaks were quite probably illegal. Many of the things he leaked were not illegal. (Since this will never go to trial, we'll probably never know.) Should the press only report on legally-sourced information? They aren't a jury. Good news for us, though - both illegal leaks, and illegal hacks are illegal. We already have…

> The Snowden leaks were quite probably illegal.

Not at all. It was required behavior. Until the government enacts a useful whistleblowing program someone who witnesses criminal actions has literally no legal choice but to leak. Ignoring it and hoping it goes away is the illegal option.

I want my institutions to be fixable from inside but when they aren't, I simply want them fixed.

Re Downvoter - I understand that you're upset but lashing out, especially against the truth, doesn't help.

Re: Fearful of Hacking, Dutch Will Count Ballots by Hand

#57

Post by rhcom2 »

vkou wrote: post #45
rhcom2 wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The press "digging up dirt" is surely different than the illegal hacking and wholesale release of all private email correspondence. Deep Throat provided info on the current President's illegal actions to a journalist, not just "dirt". Even if we accept that it is better to know the info in the DNC leaks, it is still a big problem if a foreign government can wield its influence so easily through illegal computer intru…

Leaking the Trump tax return was illegal. There was nothing illegal in the tax return. The Snowden leaks were quite probably illegal. Many of the things he leaked were not illegal. (Since this will never go to trial, we'll probably never know.) Should the press only report on legally-sourced information? They aren't a jury. Good news for us, though - both illegal leaks, and illegal hacks are illegal. We already have…

> We already have a mechanism to deal with bad behaviour in this space.

I'm not sure if we do, that's kinda my point about why this makes me so uncomfortable. Clearly no one will be held accountable for the DNC hacks.

I think I misread your original comment a little too, the press should definitely report on every thing we just mentioned. They definitely aren't a jury and once it's out, it's out. My issue is framing the actual leaks like they were "whistle blower" leaks like Deep Throat or Snowden. I guess that's mostly personal opinion on the value of the leaks though.

The idea that our political discourse is now shaped by who can get what hacked information and how they can weaponize it (Trump's taxes, DNC's emails) scares the crap out of me. Even more so if it was a foreign government targeting one political party.

I'm rambling a little but the future that this shows me looks terrible (and probably unstoppable).

Re: Fearful of Hacking, Dutch Will Count Ballots by Hand

#58

Post by jakeogh »

borkborkbork wrote: post #24
mattnewton wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You aren't wrong about the Democratic Party putting forth a weak candidate, but it is concerning that there weren't similar actions on the other side. The attacks were targeting a specific party alone and seem to be motivated by foreign geopolitical interests, not in the American public's interest. There is a reason we want equal time laws for example, because if I constantly hear one side of the argument, it doesn't…

Imagine all the dirt on GOP email accounts

Like that time Sarah Palin had to release her personal email acct? Remember all the bad stuff in there? No? That's because there wasn't any. It's weird that when a political entity gets caught rigging debates (and worse) the std response is "I'm sure the other side did it too".

Re: Fearful of Hacking, Dutch Will Count Ballots by Hand

#59

Post by jakeogh »

Jraf wrote: post #18

In France we count all ballots by hand. As every ballot station count only his ballots, it's quick. For a presidential election, maybe 30 minutes. The counting is done by the citizens, so no (easy) frauds are possible. All ballots are visible, the process is transparent, no suspicion. I personally think that a 30min delay to get the election results is worth the wait.

Watching the BREXIT vote counting process was similarly heartening.

Re: Fearful of Hacking, Dutch Will Count Ballots by Hand

#60

Post by stretchwithme »

3pt14159 wrote: post #46
stretchwithme wrote: post #11

We only every needed technology to make sure ballots get encoded correctly. We could do that with open source software, commodity PCs and card punch machines and readers. Then validating that your choices were encoded correctly would be easier. So would counting. You could count at the voting location to get fast results and recount once the ballots arrive at the central office to confirm that the reported count was…

No I don't want you to move my vote before I can see it. Use computers to do the count fast and first if you want to, but I want paper receipts also stuffed into a box and I want to be able to observe the whole process and I want to be able to observe the votes being physically counted at the end. Democracy gives so much legitimacy to her government that it will be gamed if it's possible.

If you have your ballot encoded on a punch card, you should be able go a pc with a punch card reader at the polling place and see what is actually encoded on it. The software to read the card could also be open source.

Or you could have an app on your phone that snaps a photo and reads it according to the settings published by the municipality where you are voting.

All that can happen before you give it to a poll worker.

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