Flooding of US Coast, Caused by Global Warming, Has Begun • Hacker News Board

Re: Flooding of US Coast, Caused by Global Warming, Has Begun

#51

Post by Decade » Sat, Sep 17, 2016, 6:03 PM UTC

hammock wrote: post #46

mikeash wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand the emphasis on air travel I frequently see in these discussions. Passenger planes are much more fuel efficient per passenger-mile than single-occupancy cars. Most people drive far more miles alone each year than they travel by plane. It makes no sense to me to criticize someone for flying a couple thousand miles at ~100MPG when the average American drives 12,000 miles per year at ~25MPG. Beyond th…

Same thing happens when people see a city bus spewing black smoke from it's exhaust pipe, without realizing that that bus is currently taking the place of 20 or more cars.

Not the bus that roars past my window at midnight every night.

Re: Flooding of US Coast, Caused by Global Warming, Has Begun

#52

Post by AlgorithmicTime » Sat, Sep 17, 2016, 6:15 PM UTC

kwhitefoot wrote: post #47

abysmallyideal wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's already some evidence of friction between military and the (in)corporate Congress. Military folks are made up of people who live in and grew up in economically difficult situations, and as the US civilian gov and their intelligence orgs continue their strengthening of alignment with corporate interests (profit above all else) the friction is going to build like the rising waters. Edit: cliche, but history has…

> The fall of the Roman Republic is one such historical occurrence where the military became more aligned with the common citizen than their own republic government. Really? Some references would be good.

Not really. The fall of the Roman Republic was ultimately due to the intransigence of the Senate and the transfer of the loyalties of the Legions from the state to their individual generals.

Re: Flooding of US Coast, Caused by Global Warming, Has Begun

#53

Post by kilotaras » Sat, Sep 17, 2016, 6:40 PM UTC

graeme wrote: post #39

spodek wrote: post #3

As I wrote in HN's dialog about a New York Magazine article on global warming https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12471815 : As usual, nothing about prevention. Global temperatures and the sea level are rising because of human behavior. If we want different results, we have to behave differently. Engineers and scientists know engineering and science but not so much leading people to change their behavior. It's easy…

I think the real situation is more depressing than that. Behavioural change won't matter unless the whole world does it. The rate of new global carbon emissions is increasing. This is despite any efforts to be greener or more renewable by individuals or institutions. Why? Because there's demand for fossil fuels, it's legal to produce it. How will changing individual behaviour in the west reduce global emissions or ev…

> This is despite any efforts to be greener or more renewable by individuals or institutions.

What efforts? Big part of emission reducing by west is simply moving production to devleoping countries.

Re: Flooding of US Coast, Caused by Global Warming, Has Begun

#54

Post by cleaver » Sat, Sep 17, 2016, 7:24 PM UTC

mikeash wrote: post #25

spodek wrote: post #3

As I wrote in HN's dialog about a New York Magazine article on global warming https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12471815 : As usual, nothing about prevention. Global temperatures and the sea level are rising because of human behavior. If we want different results, we have to behave differently. Engineers and scientists know engineering and science but not so much leading people to change their behavior. It's easy…

I don't understand the emphasis on air travel I frequently see in these discussions. Passenger planes are much more fuel efficient per passenger-mile than single-occupancy cars. Most people drive far more miles alone each year than they travel by plane. It makes no sense to me to criticize someone for flying a couple thousand miles at ~100MPG when the average American drives 12,000 miles per year at ~25MPG. Beyond th…

The one that gets me is the suggestion that direct flights are more efficient. Sure, if you go from New York to Los Angeles, but it wouldn't make sense if you were headed to a smaller city away from a major centre.

With millions to be saved, I'm sure airlines do a decent job of working out the most efficient combination of large direct flights and smaller commuter planes. I don't think a 3/4 empty 767 to Fargo is the way to go.

If you want to take it to an extreme, imagine if the post office only delivered your mail point-to-point in the interest of efficiency.

Re: Flooding of US Coast, Caused by Global Warming, Has Begun

#55

Post by slavik81 » Sat, Sep 17, 2016, 7:27 PM UTC

Mendenhall wrote: post #38

legutierr wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you don't know politics, then maybe you should learn, because the solution you are looking for is entirely political. That is to say, the solution is the creation of economic incentives that can only be structured and imposed through government power. Yes, people need to believe that the effects of climate change will affect their lives. Laws do follow social change, in that laws that go against entrenched special…

I agree with much of what you say. I do notice how your solution squarely targets corporations. I think that gives everyone a passive excuse and shifts blame. I say target the individuals with the laws and make them feel it and take ownership. You drive,you get taxed per mile. You dont seperate your garbage you get fined. You fly you get taxed. You buy plastic you get taxed...etc. That way everyone doing those things…

Why tax people per mile driven? Just put the tax on the gasoline (the actual source of the carbon) and you'll promote both driving less and fuel efficient vehicles. Whenever possible, design laws that promote the end result you want, not some proxy.

Of course, as much sense as it would make, raising the tax on gasoline is politically impossible. As is imposing a tax on miles driven.

The problem with making things directly visible to consumers is that everyone is a consumer and if the laws are annoying or harmful to them, they will vote in a government that repeals the laws. Then your carbon reduction measures are gone.

Re: Flooding of US Coast, Caused by Global Warming, Has Begun

#56

Post by super-serial » Sat, Sep 17, 2016, 7:54 PM UTC

mhb wrote: post #30

This problem can't be solved. No politician who advocates the sort of changes required will be reelected. There is no way to enforce international agreements. Probably the best idea is to start thinking about risky geoengineering remediation techniques.

Politicians won't solve it... but Global warming is already solved by nature. Rocks pull CO2 out of the atmosphere by weathering.

All humanity needs to do is spend about $200 billion per year on mining and crushing olivine rocks and spreading it in the ocean. https://eclipsenow.wordpress.com/olivine/

Re: Flooding of US Coast, Caused by Global Warming, Has Begun

#57

Post by pmyjavec » Sat, Sep 17, 2016, 8:21 PM UTC

jcranmer wrote: post #45

pmyjavec wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Deforestation is so serious, I visited Indonesia last year and all I could see from the plane was smoke from illegal burning of forests for palm oil plantations and cheap mass animal agriculture. It was the worst fire in known history and a really, really sad thing to witness, the baron charred fields left behind are really a terrible thing to see. I wonder why on earth more wealthy Governments don't send in the "def…

> I wonder why on earth more wealthy Governments don't send in the "defense forces" to help stop this illegal activity, instead of going to Syria, it's such a no brainier. Countries like Brazil and Indonesia shouldn't be required to protect everything on their own, nor should activists, murders of activists are a reality because they're just getting in the way of business. Pardon me, but why the hell do you think tha…

As far as corruption goes, I don't think it has a lot to do with Indonesia and Brazil. These are large places and it's hard to police every square inch of it without pretty good technology and money, once someone gets away with burning forest down, that's the end of it, why would there be a need for corruption in that case?

If there is any serious corruption happening, it's in the west, imagine freely being allowed to sell products that contain palm oil with no penalty's or taxes attached. People in these countries are poor and desperate, they have more of a reason for behaving that way, McDonalds et al doesn't.

I also never suggested sending in the cavalry or a repeat of shock and awe, I'm suggesting policing in co-operation with government of said countries to help protect a vital asset to not only humans but all species. Imagine using satellites to help quickly identify fires for example?

When large parts of priceless Indonesian rain forest were burning to the ground, and still are, there was very little international discussion and assistance with:

- Raising awareness, I doubt major western corporations wanted people to know about it.

- Putting the fire out.

- Stopping additional fires being started.

- Regeneration and repair.

Considering people starting fires aren't exactly friendly / educated people, maybe military assisted protection of the forest is better than innocent people just doing there best, I never suggested a war, I'm suggesting a peace keeping / guarding force.

Re: Flooding of US Coast, Caused by Global Warming, Has Begun

#58

Post by [deleted] » Sat, Sep 17, 2016, 8:21 PM UTC

jcranmer wrote: post #45

pmyjavec wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Deforestation is so serious, I visited Indonesia last year and all I could see from the plane was smoke from illegal burning of forests for palm oil plantations and cheap mass animal agriculture. It was the worst fire in known history and a really, really sad thing to witness, the baron charred fields left behind are really a terrible thing to see. I wonder why on earth more wealthy Governments don't send in the "def…

> I wonder why on earth more wealthy Governments don't send in the "defense forces" to help stop this illegal activity, instead of going to Syria, it's such a no brainier. Countries like Brazil and Indonesia shouldn't be required to protect everything on their own, nor should activists, murders of activists are a reality because they're just getting in the way of business. Pardon me, but why the hell do you think tha…

[deleted]

Re: Flooding of US Coast, Caused by Global Warming, Has Begun

#59

Post by kaybe » Sat, Sep 17, 2016, 8:25 PM UTC

witty_username wrote: post #49

pmyjavec wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've thought about the strike thing for sometime also, why do we keep propping these people up? The kind of action you're describing is inevitable IMO. Humans may have to go on mass strike until we get the correct Government action on climate change. Sadly, strikes might not even be required/optional soon due to impacted health from rising temperatures, air pollution and difficulty commuting. I'm currently living in…

Why do you mention the heatwaves? Do you have evidence they are related to climate change? I think it only changes temperatures by a few Celsius.

It would be nice if it only did that. For evidence, look here:

http://www.nature.com/nclimate/journal/v4/n3/full/nclimate21...

Here is a non-blocked article on the topic:

http://www.climatecentral.org/news/climate-change-is-increas...

IMHO, the biggest problems will be the changes in sea level and precipitation pattern though, and atmospheric and ocean circulation/currents. It's definitely not just a few degrees C.

Re: Flooding of US Coast, Caused by Global Warming, Has Begun

#60

Post by kaybe » Sat, Sep 17, 2016, 8:27 PM UTC

Mendenhall wrote: post #36

rayiner wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How many scientists and engineers live in a suburban McMansion and drive an SUV? Individual behavior changes aren't going to fix this problem. Nothing will. It's a forest fire that will just run its course.

I agree fully. I think many misunderstand human nature. You know whats even easier to stop than global warming? war, and no one has stopped that since the dawn of man.

Why do you think war is easier to stop than global warming?