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Flooding of US Coast, Caused by Global Warming, Has Begun

nytimes.com

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Re: Flooding of US Coast, Caused by Global Warming, Has Begun

#31

Post by pmyjavec »

blondie9x wrote: post #10

We all know by now CO2 and CH4 leads to a warmer planet. We also know what's driving greenhouse gas levels to rise across Earth. Contributors are deforestation, intensive animal farming, and primarily the combustion of carbon fossil fuels like coal, tar sands, oil, natural gas etc. But here is the underlying problem, despite us knowing how bad things are, (97+% of scientists who study this field agree we are causing…

Deforestation is so serious, I visited Indonesia last year and all I could see from the plane was smoke from illegal burning of forests for palm oil plantations and cheap mass animal agriculture. It was the worst fire in known history and a really, really sad thing to witness, the baron charred fields left behind are really a terrible thing to see.

I wonder why on earth more wealthy Governments don't send in the "defense forces" to help stop this illegal activity, instead of going to Syria, it's such a no brainier. Countries like Brazil and Indonesia shouldn't be required to protect everything on their own, nor should activists, murders of activists are a reality because they're just getting in the way of business.

It would also be easy and relatively cheap to start replanting and re-generating damage forests, I know it won't bounce back immediately, but it does regenerate eventually if assisted (apparently).

For those that are unaware, palm oil is in pretty much in all packaged foods sold in super markets, often hidden as vegetable oil, the WWF has information about identifying products that use it http://www.worldwildlife.org/pages/which-everyday-products-c...

After the destruction I saw, if one wants to continue living and has any loved ones, I would cross it off your shopping list now, along with any imported animal products.

Also, be highly skeptical about any "certified products", having spent time in Indonesia and seeing corruption first hand, I doubt such things truly exist, better to just get off the palm for good.

Re: Flooding of US Coast, Caused by Global Warming, Has Begun

#32

Post by [deleted] »

mikeash wrote: post #25
spodek wrote: post #3

As I wrote in HN's dialog about a New York Magazine article on global warming https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12471815 : As usual, nothing about prevention. Global temperatures and the sea level are rising because of human behavior. If we want different results, we have to behave differently. Engineers and scientists know engineering and science but not so much leading people to change their behavior. It's easy…

I don't understand the emphasis on air travel I frequently see in these discussions. Passenger planes are much more fuel efficient per passenger-mile than single-occupancy cars. Most people drive far more miles alone each year than they travel by plane. It makes no sense to me to criticize someone for flying a couple thousand miles at ~100MPG when the average American drives 12,000 miles per year at ~25MPG. Beyond th…

[deleted]

Re: Flooding of US Coast, Caused by Global Warming, Has Begun

#34

Post by rayiner »

spodek wrote: post #3

As I wrote in HN's dialog about a New York Magazine article on global warming https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12471815 : As usual, nothing about prevention. Global temperatures and the sea level are rising because of human behavior. If we want different results, we have to behave differently. Engineers and scientists know engineering and science but not so much leading people to change their behavior. It's easy…

How many scientists and engineers live in a suburban McMansion and drive an SUV?

Individual behavior changes aren't going to fix this problem. Nothing will. It's a forest fire that will just run its course.

Re: Flooding of US Coast, Caused by Global Warming, Has Begun

#35

Post by abysmallyideal »

3pt14159 wrote: post #22
spodek wrote: post #3

As I wrote in HN's dialog about a New York Magazine article on global warming https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12471815 : As usual, nothing about prevention. Global temperatures and the sea level are rising because of human behavior. If we want different results, we have to behave differently. Engineers and scientists know engineering and science but not so much leading people to change their behavior. It's easy…

I know this sounds a bit Ayn Rand, but almost all scientists, engineers, and computer scientists know that global warming is real and is happening. Can we not just all go on strike until the dumb or greedy people get shoved aside? Like, granted, there was some pretty effective misinformation back in 2008, but the science is completely settled now. The public benefits from our medicines and software and infrastructure…

There's already some evidence of friction between military and the (in)corporate Congress. Military folks are made up of people who live in and grew up in economically difficult situations, and as the US civilian gov and their intelligence orgs continue their strengthening of alignment with corporate interests (profit above all else) the friction is going to build like the rising waters.

Edit: cliche, but history has such examples. The military is becoming more aligned with the needs of economically lower classes, while the political, corporate elites and their intelligence orgs align with their own interests of profit, money and the ruling class. One such example was ex military personnel targetting the "elites system of oppression" by force, where the prison systems make them billions/year with labour costing pennies on the dollar.

The fall of the Roman Republic is one such historical occurrence where the military became more aligned with the common citizen than their own republic government.

Re: Flooding of US Coast, Caused by Global Warming, Has Begun

#36

Post by Mendenhall »

rayiner wrote: post #34
spodek wrote: post #3

As I wrote in HN's dialog about a New York Magazine article on global warming https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12471815 : As usual, nothing about prevention. Global temperatures and the sea level are rising because of human behavior. If we want different results, we have to behave differently. Engineers and scientists know engineering and science but not so much leading people to change their behavior. It's easy…

How many scientists and engineers live in a suburban McMansion and drive an SUV? Individual behavior changes aren't going to fix this problem. Nothing will. It's a forest fire that will just run its course.

I agree fully. I think many misunderstand human nature. You know whats even easier to stop than global warming? war, and no one has stopped that since the dawn of man.

Re: Flooding of US Coast, Caused by Global Warming, Has Begun

#37

Post by [deleted] »

mikeash wrote: post #25
spodek wrote: post #3

As I wrote in HN's dialog about a New York Magazine article on global warming https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12471815 : As usual, nothing about prevention. Global temperatures and the sea level are rising because of human behavior. If we want different results, we have to behave differently. Engineers and scientists know engineering and science but not so much leading people to change their behavior. It's easy…

I don't understand the emphasis on air travel I frequently see in these discussions. Passenger planes are much more fuel efficient per passenger-mile than single-occupancy cars. Most people drive far more miles alone each year than they travel by plane. It makes no sense to me to criticize someone for flying a couple thousand miles at ~100MPG when the average American drives 12,000 miles per year at ~25MPG. Beyond th…

[deleted]

Re: Flooding of US Coast, Caused by Global Warming, Has Begun

#38

Post by Mendenhall »

legutierr wrote: post #28
spodek wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think government will change slowly so I expect laws will follow social change. People born today will have to face the environmental change that past generations heard would happen but they knew they'd die before the worst of it. As an increasing percent of the population cares, and can see the change, we'll see change anyway, maybe people will see SUVs and flying all the time like smoking. I don't know politics,…

If you don't know politics, then maybe you should learn, because the solution you are looking for is entirely political. That is to say, the solution is the creation of economic incentives that can only be structured and imposed through government power. Yes, people need to believe that the effects of climate change will affect their lives. Laws do follow social change, in that laws that go against entrenched special…

I agree with much of what you say. I do notice how your solution squarely targets corporations. I think that gives everyone a passive excuse and shifts blame. I say target the individuals with the laws and make them feel it and take ownership. You drive,you get taxed per mile. You dont seperate your garbage you get fined. You fly you get taxed. You buy plastic you get taxed...etc. That way everyone doing those things and every company doing those things will then all pay for it. Thing is its easier to shift blame and point finger at corporations than for people to accept it themselves. Then good luck trying to convince other countries to do the same.

Re: Flooding of US Coast, Caused by Global Warming, Has Begun

#39

Post by graeme »

spodek wrote: post #3

As I wrote in HN's dialog about a New York Magazine article on global warming https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12471815 : As usual, nothing about prevention. Global temperatures and the sea level are rising because of human behavior. If we want different results, we have to behave differently. Engineers and scientists know engineering and science but not so much leading people to change their behavior. It's easy…

I think the real situation is more depressing than that. Behavioural change won't matter unless the whole world does it.

The rate of new global carbon emissions is increasing. This is despite any efforts to be greener or more renewable by individuals or institutions.

Why? Because there's demand for fossil fuels, it's legal to produce it.

How will changing individual behaviour in the west reduce global emissions or even slow their rate of growth? (Am assuming you're western)

I'm being a bit too pessimistic of course. If individuals in the west create demand for technologies that work better than fossil fuels, then we could reduce global emissions. So behavioural changes could help with that.

But as long as carbon benefits some places that need energy, it will be used. That's at least what we've seen over the past 30 years the world has focussed on reducing annual carbon emissions. They've increased instead.

Re: Flooding of US Coast, Caused by Global Warming, Has Begun

#40

Post by Gravityloss »

abysmallyideal wrote: post #35
3pt14159 wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know this sounds a bit Ayn Rand, but almost all scientists, engineers, and computer scientists know that global warming is real and is happening. Can we not just all go on strike until the dumb or greedy people get shoved aside? Like, granted, there was some pretty effective misinformation back in 2008, but the science is completely settled now. The public benefits from our medicines and software and infrastructure…

There's already some evidence of friction between military and the (in)corporate Congress. Military folks are made up of people who live in and grew up in economically difficult situations, and as the US civilian gov and their intelligence orgs continue their strengthening of alignment with corporate interests (profit above all else) the friction is going to build like the rising waters. Edit: cliche, but history has…

How about this theory: The military is not democratic in its internal organization, so the lower ranks don't have much say. And the "revolving door" phenomenon with defense industry will make sure the top brass can be influenced.

It resembles more a corrupt banana state than a hope for equality...

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