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The Programmer’s Guide to a Sane Workweek

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Re: The Programmer’s Guide to a Sane Workweek

#51

Post by happychappy »

edw519 wrote: post #4

Finally, you'll need to have the self-confidence or stubbornness to choose and stick to a path that most people don't take. You don't need self-confidence or stubbornness, just commitment to your principles... I have never worked more than 40 hours per week for anyone else. Ever. I arrive at 8. I leave at 5. I don't work from home. Except for emergencies. My definition of emergency: If someone is dying or their produ…

As a manager: If your code blows up in production on a Saturday afternoon, and you don't answer email/skype/phone, you've effectively left me in the shit. I know thats my job, and I will deal with it and survive, but your future work is going to be very heavily scrutinized - borderline micromanaged - until I trust you again

But the flipside, if your code blows up in production on a Saturday, and you spend four hours of a weekend fixing it, I'll say take 6 hours off during the week to compensate. I'd say take a day off, but our HR system will complain.

Aside from that, I expect 40 hours of "quality" braintime from you, and I don't really care where or when those hours occur, as long as you're collaborating with the team when they need you.

Re: The Programmer’s Guide to a Sane Workweek

#52

Post by guitarbill »

dx034 wrote: post #31
antirez wrote: post #13

I don't know what's the perfect amount of work every week, but I'm sure anything > 40h is wrong, and you should add commute time if more than 30min/day, otherwise it's a fake figure. In 36-40h/week it's possible to do a lot of things. If you can't often is not because of the time, but because the same people wanting you to work more vaporize your time with meetings, conference calls, emails, phone calls, at a rate th…

I wouldn't necessarily draw the line there. It always depends on your situation. If you don't have a family, working 7.30am-5.30pm (my approx working hours) 5 days per week still allows you to have enough time to spend with friends and for side projects. If your really dedicated to your project and have no family waiting at home, why should you always leave after 8 hours? Sitting in front of the TV at home isn't nece…

> If your really dedicated to your project and have no family waiting at home, why should you always leave after 8 hours?

Because longer != better. It's like why sleeping on a problem helps or why some people have the best thoughts in the shower. The best way to really make the most of those 8 hours is to do other stuff the rest of the time.

Besides, if you're a professional, you should at least have the courtesy not to devalue your colleague's time. If you start working longer, management might ask your colleague who has a family to do the same (or worse, fire them). Everybody loses by working unpaid overtime except the company. If you want to do this, make sure it's your company.

Re: The Programmer’s Guide to a Sane Workweek

#53

Post by mschuetz »

biztos wrote: post #22
majewsky wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Nobody minds working extra hours as long as they are paid for it. "As long as they are paid for it" may already be fairyland. A usual clause in employment contracts for developers in Germany goes like "The salary is X per month. Overtime is satisfied by this."

Don't larger companies in Germany usually do flex-time (Gleitzeit) for non-management employees? So, my boss can require that I work an extra 10 hours this week, but I need to get it back at some point, right?

I know it as "Zeitausgleich". You don't get paid overtime but you accumulate time off. Pretty much like getting additional vacation days. And to be honest, I kind of like this system. I'm happy to work >40h every now and then, but I won't work >40h on average.

Re: The Programmer’s Guide to a Sane Workweek

#54

Post by javajosh »

antirez wrote: post #13

I don't know what's the perfect amount of work every week, but I'm sure anything > 40h is wrong, and you should add commute time if more than 30min/day, otherwise it's a fake figure. In 36-40h/week it's possible to do a lot of things. If you can't often is not because of the time, but because the same people wanting you to work more vaporize your time with meetings, conference calls, emails, phone calls, at a rate th…

I really like that phrasing, "vaporizing your time", which captures the adversarial nature of external interruptions in a suitably light-hearted way.

I would add that to produce anything it is important to clear a space both in time and physical or abstract space (e.g. a folder, if you are a programmer) into which you put tools and supplies and labor. You must then a) know each space, and b) develop a way to visit each space (and leave it) as required by circumstance and your own needs. For a program, you need (at a bare minimum): a folder, a toolset, a set of time, and a list of predicates that are currently false that you commit to making evaluate to true (but no cheating). This process is actively harmed by overwork, because overwork attacks the same cognition that is necessary to successfully execute the process.

Re: The Programmer’s Guide to a Sane Workweek

#55

Post by ryandrake »

The "paths to a saner week" seem pretty simplistic and unrealistic. Want fewer hours? Work fewer hours! Wow, you don't say?! That simple, huh? The quote from the article is "you always have the option of unilaterally normalizing your hours." Oh reeeeally?

Don't like your commute? Don't commute so much. Just snap your fingers and afford to live closer to work! Got it.

Want a shorter work week? Just "negotiate" (word mentioned 9 times in the story). Oh, silly me, I was forgetting all of that extra power most people have in the employee/employer relationship!

Any advice for those of us living in the real world?

Re: The Programmer’s Guide to a Sane Workweek

#56

Post by muzster »

wccrawford wrote: post #35
muzster wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Was that down to yourself or your employer ? Sometimes we are our own worst enemy.

Does it really matter? Since he put in his notice, I don't think he'd have worked 80 hour weeks if he didn't feel he had to. Either way, he feels pressured to do it and he is now out from under that pressure.

It does matter - we can fix self inflicted wounds a little easier than fix the culture of an organisation.

Re: The Programmer’s Guide to a Sane Workweek

#57

Post by grecy »

I think the easiest and most overlooked piece of advice revolves around cell phones.

When you start a new job, under no circumstance should you give them your personal cell phone number.

Tell them it's inappropriate, tell them it could turn into a conflict of interest, tell them you don't have a cell (true for me), tell them you can't afford a cell, tell them you can't afford roaming, tell them you only have data, not a number, tell them anything you have to so you don't give them your personal cell number. Don't ever, ever let them install anything on your phone either, "BYOD" style.

Same applies for your home number, if you have one, and your personal email address. Setup a different email and google voice number for the purposes of interviewing, etc. Once you have a job, don't respond to it "real time".

Now, if they want you to have a work cell, they can provide and pay for it, and before you put a hand on it, you make them very, very clearly document under what circumstances and times you are expected to answer that phone, and what compensation you get for doing so. If they won't provide extra compensation, you make it very clear your home commitments (kids, sick family, make something up) are your priority, and you won't be taking that cell home with you. Leave it in your desk drawer at work, turn it on at 8:30am and turn it off at 5pm and leave it there.

If your employer won't accept that, find another one. Life is too short.

Re: The Programmer’s Guide to a Sane Workweek

#58

Post by jnordwick »

I think it also depends on the industry and way you are paid. If you are getting paid $100k doing simple web work, CRUD database stuff, JEE plumbing type where, wiring together libraries with Spring, etc. then you are probably going to complain about working more hours.

If you are getting paid $250k or $300k doing something highly interesting that comes with tight deadlines like finance or trading, then you are going to push yourself a lot harder.

And especially if much of your pay is bonus-based, you will definitely push harder. For example, working in the front-office of a trading company where even developers are getting paid mostly in bonus it is very common to put in more than 60 hours a week. And people love it because the work it very exciting.

One of the most important questions is do you love what you do. I love working in front-office in finance, and i'll gladly put in plenty of hours, especially since getting the promotion to director or principal carries a huge pay increase.

I don't work for my current salary, I work for the next one. I don't do any side projects because getting that next strategy or gateway up and running is worth more than any project I could work on. My job is my side project. And I really like it that way.

Instead of figuring out to only work so many hours, why not try to figure out how to find jobs that excite you more. Find that field you really love and that pays you well or find that startup where you can really see yourself making a huge contribution.

Re: The Programmer’s Guide to a Sane Workweek

#59

Post by jnordwick »

ThePawnBreak wrote: post #23
flanbiscuit wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You're just reducing your hourly rate. This is how I've always explained to people who constantly work overtime in salaried positions where they don't actually get paid for that overtime. You can at look at it one of 2 ways. 1. Your billable self stopped at the 8-hour mark on a given weekday and every hour after that, including weekends, you're just giving away free labor to the company. Just think about that every…

Do you also account for the fact that you are way more likely to be promoted if you work overtime?

Reading all the responses to your comment a few things come to mind:

- people on HN have bad jobs with no advancement track for strong technical skills

- people on HN don't want to work their way up, then want it handed to them.

Re: The Programmer’s Guide to a Sane Workweek

#60

Post by grecy »

happychappy wrote: post #51
edw519 wrote: post #4

Finally, you'll need to have the self-confidence or stubbornness to choose and stick to a path that most people don't take. You don't need self-confidence or stubbornness, just commitment to your principles... I have never worked more than 40 hours per week for anyone else. Ever. I arrive at 8. I leave at 5. I don't work from home. Except for emergencies. My definition of emergency: If someone is dying or their produ…

As a manager: If your code blows up in production on a Saturday afternoon, and you don't answer email/skype/phone, you've effectively left me in the shit. I know thats my job, and I will deal with it and survive, but your future work is going to be very heavily scrutinized - borderline micromanaged - until I trust you again But the flipside, if your code blows up in production on a Saturday, and you spend four hours…

> As a manager: If your code blows up in production on a Saturday afternoon, and you don't answer email/skype/phone, you've effectively left me in the shit.

As an IT employee if you are running mission critical software and (as Manager) don't have an after hours call-out rotation and procedures, then you're not doing a very good job, and I'll be looking for another place of employment.

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