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Snowden reveals GCHQ spy programme with link to Scottish police

thenational.scot

51–60 of 72 posts

Re: Snowden reveals GCHQ spy programme with link to Scottish police

#51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US did shut down its WWI-era spying in 1929. The (Republican!) Secretary State did so with the simple comment "Gentlemen do not read each other's mail". > Enemy nations can then go rampant The main enemy of the FVEY agencies has always been the population of the FVEY countries. This goes back a long time - in the era that US Republicans actually did believe in smaller government and Stimson was shutting down the…

Great comment. Can you recommend any further reading?

"The Defence of the Realm: The Authorized History of MI5" and "Spycatcher" (the very unauthorised book, which again had to be written overseas).

Re: Snowden reveals GCHQ spy programme with link to Scottish police

#52

https://theintercept.com/2015/03/16/howthefbicreatedaterrori... Until people stop supporting hierarchical power structures, ie voting for presidents, working for a company where there's a single boss at the top and so on, using only a limited number of sources to obtain your data (ie media) which fuels your bias making your knees jerk and the current implementation of the financial system, people will always distrust…

Then how can you trust the intercepts cherry picking of the documents trove snowden took? My argument is it's pretty ballsy to call people out about transparency knowing they can't argue and that there are likely contradictions or at least further details being omitted by hand selecting documents for dissemination. It's really the same issue on both sides. Neither are telling the whole story. I would argue your comme…

The Intercept is just making money, people will do what they can to make money, including murder sometimes as our armed forces demonstrate, as do other killers.

Capitalism is the best control system which no one can buy.

But I also believe Snowden is a false flag global psychological experiment to see if human behaviour can be shaped with the "leaked" knowledge from Snowden. If you watch this https://www.ted.com/talks/philip_zimbardo_on_the_psychology_...

If you know you are being watched will you "behave" better?

This is in effect what is going on, and the spooks already admit that some "suspects" have gone to ground since Snowden. The debate on whats right and wrong which forms our laws will still rage on though.

Perhaps The Intercept is just a useful idiot including Snowden in the scheme of things. I saw a comment that said Snowden has never thanked Putin or Russia for giving him asylum, and apparently its very rare for Russia to give asylum.

I agree about calling out those who cant speak out due to be being bound by secrecy, but this is the problem. Today us humans have created a society that could well come back to bite us due to technological advancements. Sometimes its not what is said that counts but the actions that ensue which matters more, or who benefits from the disclosure. In this case if you take spying/hacking, one of the things thats now going on is other countries like Russia and China are now concentrating on developing their own chips, HW, software and generally improving security at a country as well as a business & individual level. This helps the spooks in some ways as they no longer have to defend their own in the same way or with as much resource. Likewise this also promotes innovation after all, what will the Chinese or Russians or anyone else come up with in a bid to keep "foreign" hackers out of systems?

Take religion, it was generally an effective method to control the uneducated by putting the fear of god into people. Could you or anyone else come up with anything better than religion all those hundreds of years ago? We had limited knowledge, limited tools, less communication which includes travel so as always intelligent people "mis"directed less informed/educated people. Its human nature to climb the monkey tree so to speak. Who doesnt want to be top dog? Some people learn from being dictated/taught and others learn from experience.

So fast forward to today and we are still dealing with the ramifications of decisions think ISIS with their religous killings made by people hundreds of years ago still causing problems even though at the time it was thought to be the best solution, after all who could have imagined todays technology back then?

Arguably we are now capable of playing god with what has been developed today. But at the same time we face new problems like a still increasing global population on a finite planet with limited resources. Ok the development of agrichemicals has helped increase farm yields so we can now feed more people today than ever before, and money also helps control people as you cant do much without x amount of money, but as we now go into a grand solar minimum, famine is the biggest issue we now potentially face right when this planets population is at its greatest.

The population exploded with the discovery and development of oil. If we took fossil fuels out of the equation the global population would fall over night very rapidly and chaos would ensue. Who wants to put their kids through a dystopian future?

So whilst there may be justifications for the actions of the spooks, their methods imo stink as it could be argued they including Govt have betrayed our trust. So Snowden has been useful for focusing our attentions using perhaps the best method to get us to stand on our own two feet with regard to computer security. Lets face it, due to Dunbars number most people only care about themselves, and upto about 150 other people. On a planet with 13billion people thats alot of people not giving a toss about alot of other people. Our own human nature could be our ultimate downfall unless we can be manipulated into what todays supposedly intelligent people deem fit for today and tomorrow, just like religion was useful for keeping the uneducated masses in check in ye olde times.

Take WW2 that was in part due to limited resources, in fact studies into legumes in the 50's were to see if they could be used as a safe food source. Today the UN advocates eating insects in order to find another protein source on this overpopulated finite planet.

Dont get me wrong, I have experienced some of the methods used by the spooks due to family which is another story, but I see both sides of the coin and whilst we all generally want a good happy fun filled life, we also have differences and consolidating those differences which could have been created due to the data (teachings, media et al) we have been exposed to over out lifetime which in turn fuels our biases and beliefs is what needs tackling.

Likewise power corrupts, its a heady mix, much like testosterone or cocaine so the structures in place, the clandestine meetings of top knobs in business and govt like we see with the Bilderberg meetings and other soirees is largely driven by what people want. As a race and guardians of the planet we cant sit on our laurels, so we need to be manipulated, coerced or "mis"directed into the "right" directions and actions whatever they maybe in order to continue to survive the threats which we face today. At the same time, those at the top dont want to relinquish their privilege, beit inherited or worked and those at the bottom will always want to be at the top.

So its complicated as always, but also interesting including pushing boundaries including playing devils advocate in whatever shape or form that might be. Sometimes all the brain storming in the world cant find a solution until put in that situation which dictates the need for a solution.

Re: Snowden reveals GCHQ spy programme with link to Scottish police

#53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But Washington Post says he is for real. So does the Guardian. And he is telling us which programs to use and which crypto is or isn't broken.

I love that he went from being a network admin to the savior of the internet. At what point in his career did he have perfect visibility into every topic he's quoted on. He wasn't even a part of the groups he tried to out (TAO). My guess is he was genuine in his curiosity, something happened that frustrated him (maybe he was worried about being let go from yet another contracted position, maybe he was denied on his a…

He was offered a job at TAO, but turned it down to work at BAH (near the end of his career).

Re: Snowden reveals GCHQ spy programme with link to Scottish police

#54
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed. It's true to say that there would have been a lot more terrorist attacks, and more serious organised crime, were our security services not using the bulk surveillance data sets for their analyses. Of course, none of the details can be revealed for operational reasons, so the more paranoid fill in the blanks with 1984-style dystopian fantasy. It's unfortunate, as they really are doing good work.

"It's true to say that there would have been a lot more terrorist attacks" Why is it true to say? I doubt there would have been more terrorist attacks. They definitely would have mentioned at least one such planned attack that was stopped as it is in their best interest to change public perception. https://theintercept.com/2015/11/17/u-s-mass-surveillance-ha...

    > They definitely would have mentioned at least one
    > such planned attack that was stopped as it is in
    > their best interest to change public perception
They managed to keep quiet about WMDs, despite poor public perception:

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2014/10/14/world/middleea...

Any details at all on plots that have been found and stopped via surveillance would lead to changes in behaviour of bad actors.

Re: Snowden reveals GCHQ spy programme with link to Scottish police

#55
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is frustrating as I call it schrodinger's terrorist, why, well, say everybody is in a box. now you do not know if that person in a box is a terrorist or not and by terrorist, a bad person who will impact others right to life. So not knowing you can only tell if you look in a box, well if they are not and you look you are lambasted, if you look and they are then your just doing your job. Now from a PR perspective,…

But this argument ignores the original probability of a random person being a terrorist. It is a gross violation of the trust necessary to maintain a republic. And further arguing that it's okay because most people won't know they were violated is like saying a plastic surgeon is justified in violating every unconscious patient in surgery just in case they would have wanted it anyway. Not a good direction for society…

It does not ignore the probability at all as that is what the boxes are unopened, so your wrong.

I'm not arguing its ok, I'm stating the situation. your plastic surgeon analogy does not map onto this problem and bit strawman in posture.

As for you labeling people apologists for wanting to discuss a situation clearly indicates a bias in perspective and step back and look at both sides of the problem.

There is no cookie cutter solution to this, and it requires a balance, otherwise you might as well scrap all security services as you are effectively replacing them with police who equally would not be allowed to do any form of surveillance or anything that might possibly entail the potential that they are looking into innocent people. You see the problem now.

So please, look at the problem from all sides, don't just dismiss and label, as we have facebook for such level of discussion.

Re: Snowden reveals GCHQ spy programme with link to Scottish police

#56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I love that he went from being a network admin to the savior of the internet. At what point in his career did he have perfect visibility into every topic he's quoted on. He wasn't even a part of the groups he tried to out (TAO). My guess is he was genuine in his curiosity, something happened that frustrated him (maybe he was worried about being let go from yet another contracted position, maybe he was denied on his a…

He was offered a job at TAO, but turned it down to work at BAH (near the end of his career).

I know this to be 100% false.

His first application to join TAO as a remote operator was denied due to personality conflicts (the interviewers felt he was cocky in his responses and weren't sure of his ability to fit in with the rest of the operators.) This was circa 2011 when he was working with the CIA in an NSA joint Billet.

Early 2012 during expansion and hiring within TAO Hawaii, he was given a second chance to prove technical talents in a test designed to pre-empt RIOT (Remote Interactive Operator Training). He failed the test twice both at NSAH and NSAW. His only option was to transition as a contractor at BAH where he was the equivalent of an R&T analyst even though he was in a network administration billet(he was never assigned to TAO directly, because his administration billet supported missions he was asked to fill a critical shortage of manpower). The technical requirements to become an R&T analyst while high, were well below those that perform as Interactive On Net operators (ION). As an analyst he worked projects targeting the exact groups he leaked information about. During his time working his targets he submitted numerous plans that were rejected and greater HQ at NSAW began to ignore is operations proposals. His projects were ultimately removed from him and placed in the hands of capable analysts. It wasn't long after that he decided to lash out. So no he was never offered a job within TAO (which has multiple groups), when he did work with BAH interacting with them he failed miserably.

Wikipedia is wrong.

Re: Snowden reveals GCHQ spy programme with link to Scottish police

#57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He was offered a job at TAO, but turned it down to work at BAH (near the end of his career).

I know this to be 100% false. His first application to join TAO as a remote operator was denied due to personality conflicts (the interviewers felt he was cocky in his responses and weren't sure of his ability to fit in with the rest of the operators.) This was circa 2011 when he was working with the CIA in an NSA joint Billet. Early 2012 during expansion and hiring within TAO Hawaii, he was given a second chance to…

Whoa. Do you have insider knowledge?

Re: Snowden reveals GCHQ spy programme with link to Scottish police

#58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know this to be 100% false. His first application to join TAO as a remote operator was denied due to personality conflicts (the interviewers felt he was cocky in his responses and weren't sure of his ability to fit in with the rest of the operators.) This was circa 2011 when he was working with the CIA in an NSA joint Billet. Early 2012 during expansion and hiring within TAO Hawaii, he was given a second chance to…

Whoa. Do you have insider knowledge?

Yes, I was there.

Re: Snowden reveals GCHQ spy programme with link to Scottish police

#59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Whoa. Do you have insider knowledge?

Yes, I was there.

Interesting stuff! Why do you think he was given so much access to material that wasn't directly relevant to his work?

Re: Snowden reveals GCHQ spy programme with link to Scottish police

#60
post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Enemy nations can then go rampant. Let them. I've never been to I dunno, North Korea, I have no plans to go there, let them know whatever they like about me. It's a problem however when a government that DOES have some say over my life does it.

The problem is you can't control countries or ideologies by a border so that approach simply doesn't work.

> The problem is you can't control countries... by a border so that approach simply doesn't work.

Countries are kinda defined by border control, in some sense. Unless you're posting from some alternate reality where the Korean People's Army is free to march on Times Square.

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