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Statisticians Find They Can Agree: It’s Time to Stop Misusing P-Values

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Re: Statisticians Find They Can Agree: It’s Time to Stop Misusing P-Values

#51
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For giggles and grins, my aunt and uncle are an actual example of one of the classic frequentist vs bayesian examples where frequentist statistics says that something utterly irrelevant should matter. Scenario 1 (true). Bill and Lorena had 7 children. 6 were boys, 1 was a girl. Are they biased towards having one gender? A 2-sided p-value says that there are 16 possibilities of this strength or more, each of which has…

Is this actually true for the Bayesian model? Throw in a parameter for whether or not Bill and Lorena were trying to have children until they had a boy and a girl. Now your answer will depend quite heavily on your prior!

This is entirely true.

The posterior odds are computed ENTIRELY from the odds of the observed events under the prior beliefs. There is NO WAY in which might-have-beens and didn't-happens enter in. Therefore the posterior probabilities cannot depend on the knowledge of what they would have done if something different had happened.

Of course frequentist statistics are heavily affected by what would have happened if something different had happened.

Re: Statisticians Find They Can Agree: It’s Time to Stop Misusing P-Values

#52
post #6

I agree as well! Here is what probability theory teaches us. The proper role of data is to adjust our prior beliefs about probabilities to posterior beliefs through Bayes' theorem. The challenge is how to best communicate this result to people who may have had a wide range of prior beliefs. p-values capture a degree of surprise in the result. Naively, a surprising result should catch our attention and cause us to ret…

Simple Bayesian approaches take the opposite approach. You generally start with some relatively naive prior, and then treat the posterior as being the conclusion. Which is not very realistic if the real prior was something quite different. I don't think this is a completely accurate portrayal of Bayesian stats. In Bayesian stats, there is no "real prior". Probability distributions are all subjective representations o…

There are different approaches a Bayesian might take. The one that I described is certainly among them, though it is not the only one.

Re: Statisticians Find They Can Agree: It’s Time to Stop Misusing P-Values

#53
post #39

p-value analysis has its big caveats like multiple comparisons, but Bayesian has its own, such as it's extremely hard to calculate priors. Both are challenging to use in difficult analysis and both can be abused.

> such as it's extremely hard to calculate priors. I think you mean it is difficult to formulate priors? Typically, calculating a prior only involves sampling from a distribution.

Let's use this example: http://betterexplained.com/articles/an-intuitive-and-short-e...

-1% of women have breast cancer (and therefore 99% do not).

-80% of mammograms detect breast cancer when it is there (and therefore 20% miss it).

-9.6% of mammograms detect breast cancer when it’s not there (and therefore 90.4% correctly return a negative result).

For generating a prior, I posit it's really hard to determine that 1% of women have breast cancer, and this prior is almost linearly sensitive to whether you actually have cancer:

prior | % likelihood of cancer

2% | 16%

1% | 7.8%

0.5% | 4%

Why do I think it's hard to determine the prior? Imagine you are a 34 yrs old woman in SF. Do you use the rate of breast cancer for only 34 yr olds? For the range of 30-40 yr olds? 30-65 yr olds? For women only in SF? In the bay area? In California? Data from 2000-2016? 2010-2016? This becomes hard because positive cases are rare (thank god), so the population of which you calculate the prior from can be noisy. Imagine if the positive result occurs 1e-5 times.. you are talking about 10's of cases every million. Vary the prior probability and your posterior probability will vary just as much.

Re: Statisticians Find They Can Agree: It’s Time to Stop Misusing P-Values

#54
Next step is explaining social science students the meaning of 'randomness' :)

Really, the amazing amount of bullshit social studies I have seen 'proven' by statistics. Amazing new insights like 'if children wear green shirts, while the teacher has a blue shirt the cognitive attention span is 12.3% higher than children wearing purple shirts. The effect was measured with a significance of bla bla bla.'

Software like SPSS facilitates this even more. People with no notion of random effects or probablilty theory click on the 'proof my research' button and even get it published.

So a lot more work in this area!

Re: Statisticians Find They Can Agree: It’s Time to Stop Misusing P-Values

#55
post #21

If they held the same meeting 20 times, would they reach the same conclusion in 19 of those meetings? On a more serious note, I think that the use of the word "significant" to mean "the effect is reasonably likely to exist by some standard" should be abolished. Webster's 1913 dictionary says: > Deserving to be considered; important; momentous; as, a significant event. Statisticians don't use "significant" to mean imp…

There is a difference between effect size and significance. Things can be extremely statistically significant and have very small effect sizes.

But the problem is less here and more that people don't care to understand the models they are using to judge statistical significance. A p-value is simply a magic wand to wave over the data and bless it. Statisticians may tend to look at the data a lot more qualitatively - a p-value might tell you something, but much more important is: "How accurately have I managed to model this system?"

This is the larger problem lurking behind "p-hacking" and other colossal statistical fuck-ups: people don't understand the mathematical models they are applying, the limitations of the data, and often don't care to, as long as the veneer of having 'done something' can be applied.

This, again, is probably a product of people cranking out shitty papers to make sure that they keep publishing, to continue eking out grants; which, again, is probably a product of research science being generally underfunded for the demands placed on it.

Re: Statisticians Find They Can Agree: It’s Time to Stop Misusing P-Values

#56
It's not just p-values. Some people just don't understand even very basic statistics.

I remember talking to one person in marketing who ran surveys of the company's users. They would send out a survey to all registered users, get back responses from 1% of them or something, and then proceed to report findings based on the responses. They were really happy, since a 1% response rate is great for surveys like this.

I tried to explain to them that all of this statistical machinery relies on having a random sample, and a self-selected sample is not that. No effect whatsoever. Surveys like this are standard practice in the industry. Why are you making trouble, geek-boy?

Re: Statisticians Find They Can Agree: It’s Time to Stop Misusing P-Values

#57
post #8

Is the p-value really not the probability of your results being due to chance? Is that not a perfectly valid definition of it? I suppose 'chance' is a little hand-wavy, but isn't a p-value just the probability of your data given that your hypothesis is false? Isn't that literally and precisely the probability that they occurred by chance?

No it's not.

It's the probability of you seeing your results due to chance if there is no effect.

This differs from the probability of the results being due to chance because it does not take into account the probability of your hypothesis being true or false.

If you observe something that would disprove e.g. General Relativity with a P of 0.001 it is much more likely to be due to chance than if you observe something that is consistent with known science with a P of 0.001, as the weight of all the evidence for General Relativity is very strong.

Re: Statisticians Find They Can Agree: It’s Time to Stop Misusing P-Values

#58
post #6

I agree as well! Here is what probability theory teaches us. The proper role of data is to adjust our prior beliefs about probabilities to posterior beliefs through Bayes' theorem. The challenge is how to best communicate this result to people who may have had a wide range of prior beliefs. p-values capture a degree of surprise in the result. Naively, a surprising result should catch our attention and cause us to ret…

Thanks for the very interesting thoughts. Could you explain a bit how your rule of thumb works and why it's better than p-values? Why is the difference vs. the square root of the max available sample size a meaningful measure?

The idea is that you will decide when you've either expended as much energy as you are willing to, or when you're convinced that you won't make a different decision.

There is a simple symmetry argument that shows that the odds of a random walk reaching sqrt(N) in one direction and then getting to the opposite direction by N observations is exactly the same as the odds of a random walk reaching 2 sqrt(N) by the time you reach N observations. So the sqrt(N) rule is a simplified version of, "Call off the test when you've reached 95% certainty that we have our final answer."

You can easily make a million minor improvements. But I can't come up with a simpler rule meeting the business needs which is less likely to lead to dangerous misunderstandings.

"Decide when you pass this threshold, or when you've put out as much effort as you're willing to."

And the effort required to testing are easily understood as well.

"The cost of a bad A/B test is at most 100 lost sales and remembering it is there for 2 months." (This would be for an organization that expects 10,000 sales in 2 months, and is willing to leave tests up for that long.)

And if memory serves me (I'd have to redo the calculation) the rule of thumb in this case is that wins below 1% are called randomly, above 2% are usually called right, you're confident of getting the right answer above 5%, and even over many tests you are confident of never making a 10% mistake.

That last rule of thumb is important. Small organizations can't benefit from A/B tests. Large ones are stupid not to use it heavily. And very few people have a good sense of whether it makes sense for them.

Re: Statisticians Find They Can Agree: It’s Time to Stop Misusing P-Values

#59
post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

More likely they mean the opposite: that a statistically significant P value (by whatever threshold you decide to use) should not be used, by itself, to drive policy decisions. Internally, the effect size still matters. Externally, there are numerous other factors that should drive decisionmaking.

Right, but I guess what I'm getting at is frequently we see people doing even worse: making policy decisions based on data that doesn't even hit a minimum threshold for acceptability. I totally agree that people shouldn't make policy decisions solely because the data supports it, but frequently you see people make decisions based on data indicating something without actually being statistically significant. That feel…

One issue is that if you have a large effect that's consistently and easily reproduced, you don't actually need very accurate measurements or a statistical analysis at all. So any minimum standard would need to take into account.

Another issue is that science is expensive and we need to make decisions all the time whether there is any science backing them or not. So what do you do if there's no science that meets the minimum standards?

Re: Statisticians Find They Can Agree: It’s Time to Stop Misusing P-Values

#60
post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> such as it's extremely hard to calculate priors. I think you mean it is difficult to formulate priors? Typically, calculating a prior only involves sampling from a distribution.

Let's use this example: http://betterexplained.com/articles/an-intuitive-and-short-e... -1% of women have breast cancer (and therefore 99% do not). -80% of mammograms detect breast cancer when it is there (and therefore 20% miss it). -9.6% of mammograms detect breast cancer when it’s not there (and therefore 90.4% correctly return a negative result). For generating a prior, I posit it's really hard to determine that…

hmm, what you are discussing above is typically called the formulation of the prior, not the calculation of it. And I agree that this formulation can be problematic. It is almost certainly the most contentious element in Bayesian inference.

However, I will note that your examples are largely overstating the problem. The prior is not typically as subjective as you are implying. Furthermore, the Bayesian prediction converges to the frequential result in the limit of 'large' data. If your results are so highly sensitive to your prior that the results drastically change, then you either have:

1) insufficient data, at which point the frequentist results would also certainly have been as bad or worse (the prior acts as a regularization) 2) a misspecified prior

Either way, it is absolutely required that you perform tests to ensure your results are not greatly sensitive to your choice of prior, or if so that this is clearly noted as a modeling assumption. And bayes naturally has many means to test precisely this, such as cross-validation, bayes-factors, hierarchical, etc.

I also note that this is why I typically prefer Jeffreys Priors in my work. I mention this so that one can see that not all priors are 'subjective'. These are difficult to use in some fields, admittedly.

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