Why I think Tesla is building throwaway cars • Hacker News Board

Re: Why I think Tesla is building throwaway cars

#51

Post by qume » Sun, Mar 06, 2016, 5:10 PM UTC

carlivar wrote: post #34

qume wrote: post #13

This is a good place to share this with geeks who may not be into cars: I drive a 1994 Mercedes (W124 chassis). One of the most reliable cars ever made. Simple to repair yourself. A TON of info available online for anything you could want to fix. Pretty much (probably 100%) of all parts on the car are available super cheap as chinese replacements because the model was around for so long and so many of them are still…

Your window regulator will fail again within a year or two. (Learned this from experience installing Chinese-made replacement parts in my 90's VW)

I'm sure it will. $23 for a few years is Ok though... it only takes 30 mins to swap it out.

Re: Why I think Tesla is building throwaway cars

#52

Post by darpa_escapee » Sun, Mar 06, 2016, 5:10 PM UTC

lacker wrote: post #18

None of this seems "throwaway" to me. It just means that rather than build a product that ends up being repaired by a distributed army of mechanics, they are going "full stack" and aiming to repair everything in-house. To me that seems like the ideal system - some people like the author might enjoy repairing their own cars, but I would rather not.

Vertical integration limits options and competetion.

This is excellent for Tesla, but awful for the consumer.

Re: Why I think Tesla is building throwaway cars

#53

Post by martin_bech » Sun, Mar 06, 2016, 5:12 PM UTC

dingo_bat wrote: post #17

martin_bech wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But you want a connection to Big Brother, you want free super charging, you want software updates, you want free internet access and navigation, you want the free Spotify Account. My Car wouldnt have AutoPark, Summon, Traffic Aware Cruise Control, Lane Assist, Spotify, Autopilot, 50 ekstra Horse Power and so on, without the software updates the connection to Big Brother provides. (Euro Spec S85D)

How is the extra HP related to the Big Brother connection?

Car was ordered with about 380HP, but delivered with a software update to unlock 428HP (Metric).

Re: Why I think Tesla is building throwaway cars

#54

Post by zanny » Sun, Mar 06, 2016, 5:16 PM UTC

valine wrote: post #12

This is very troubling to read. I can understand that tampering with an automobile might pose safety concerns. I can also understand that Tesla is trying to protect its brand. That being said, the fact that Tesla is monitoring individual cars in a way that they can detect when you're used the Ethernet port is seriously Orwellian. I can only imagine this will get worse as cars become more autonomous.

The ability to potentially break your car has never stopped any other car in history from having an accessible engine compartment.

This is basically in tandem with the John Deere story - the consequences of proprietary software bleed into the physical world and cause an incredible amount of difficulty for people who do not even recognize what the problem is. Tesla can only get away with all this because of how digital the car is in the first place.

Re: Why I think Tesla is building throwaway cars

#55

Post by [deleted] » Sun, Mar 06, 2016, 5:17 PM UTC

ryandrake wrote: post #45

One of the things that makes a car valuable is having a healthy aftermarket. It looks like, from this article anyway, Tesla is doing anything they can to make sure there is no aftermarket for their vehicles. To me, a car that you can't service yourself is worthless. A car that needs the manufacturer's permission to activate is not your car--it's owned by the manufacturer. And, when the manufacturer places a threateni…

[deleted]

Re: Why I think Tesla is building throwaway cars

#56

Post by wlesieutre » Sun, Mar 06, 2016, 5:22 PM UTC

JshWright wrote: post #26

bambax wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which model exactly? How is it more environmentally friendly than a Tesla? Surely the mileage is very poor...? (I'm in the market for a cheap car and am genuinely interested in your answers ;-)

It's more environmentally friendly because it's already built.

Note that this is true of any car in a car dealer lot. But it only matters as a comparison when a car is potentially at end-of-life, and whether it stays on the road or gets shoved in a junkyard and replaced with a new one is an open question.

If somebody decides to replace their 2013 model, it's basically 100% odds of staying on the road, and that car being on the road maybe represents one less new car that could have been made. But person who buys the used 2013 might be selling their 2001 to someone who takes it and then scraps their 1992 model. The net effect is one new car being manufactured, and one old car being scrapped. We can't take each transaction in the chain and say "This sale prevented a new car from needing to be made and saved a bunch of energy and material costs, and so did this one, and so did this one."

That's only with respect to the manufacturing side, or what we'd call "embodied energy". There are considerations from ongoing costs too, like how the gas mileage (probably fine, I've clocked my 1998 Civic at around 32 MPG) or emissions (I have no idea) compare against a newer car.

Re: Why I think Tesla is building throwaway cars

#57

Post by qume » Sun, Mar 06, 2016, 5:22 PM UTC

Swizec wrote: post #20

qume wrote: post #13

This is a good place to share this with geeks who may not be into cars: I drive a 1994 Mercedes (W124 chassis). One of the most reliable cars ever made. Simple to repair yourself. A TON of info available online for anything you could want to fix. Pretty much (probably 100%) of all parts on the car are available super cheap as chinese replacements because the model was around for so long and so many of them are still…

You should look up crash tests between cars considered safe in 1994 and modern cars. I saw one for two Renault Espace models. The old one was so crumply compared to the new one, that the new one didn't even deploy airbags because there was no need. Both got top safety ratings when new. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xQS-7heF-og

Oh, and one more thing. Go walk around the yard of a tow company. Be prepared to feel sick.

You'll come away with the conclusion that the standard crash tests, which are well designed for common accidents, are still just a small minority of serious accidents.

And the most horrifying thing that I came away with is the number of wrecks where there is 'car' where the passengers should be. Even in trucks and SUVs.

The strongest cars ever built historically are still the strongest cars on the road, even though there have been some great innovations that they miss out on.

This is just for fun really, not trying to make a point with it, but this is an old Volvo destroying other cars: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R95yOXPoR_s

Re: Why I think Tesla is building throwaway cars

#58

Post by gioele » Sun, Mar 06, 2016, 5:24 PM UTC

ryandrake wrote: post #45

One of the things that makes a car valuable is having a healthy aftermarket. It looks like, from this article anyway, Tesla is doing anything they can to make sure there is no aftermarket for their vehicles. To me, a car that you can't service yourself is worthless. A car that needs the manufacturer's permission to activate is not your car--it's owned by the manufacturer. And, when the manufacturer places a threateni…

> To me, a car that you can't service yourself is worthless. A car that needs the manufacturer's permission to activate is not your car--it's owned by the manufacturer.

How many cars sold in 2016 can be activated without the manufacturer's permission? If you break your engine control module, who, if not the original manufacturer, can provide you a new one that works for your car?

(Serious question, no sarcasm.)

Re: Why I think Tesla is building throwaway cars

#59

Post by goldenkey » Sun, Mar 06, 2016, 5:24 PM UTC

XJOKOLAT wrote: post #11

kuschku wrote: post #6

This is an interesting topic. And an interesting idea for a hack: Hacking a Tesla Model S to work without any connection to Big Brother, eh, Tesla, I mean.

Root a Tesla?! Sounds fun.

Or better, social the technician and grab that delicious signing key :-)

Re: Why I think Tesla is building throwaway cars

#60

Post by teacup50 » Sun, Mar 06, 2016, 5:26 PM UTC

charlesdenault wrote: post #7

If Tesla's longterm business strategy is to build a fleet of autonomous cars that operate in fractional ownership/lease models, of course it makes sense to build a car that has a Time will tell, and it will be interesting to see what the Model 3 has for a warranty, considering it's targeting a much broader market than the Model S/X.

Iterate quickly?

Hardware is not software. The environmental cost alone of building a new car is outrageous.

In addition to which, the SV2.0 "iterate quickly" ideal turns consumers into guinea pigs for half-baked and half-broken products that will just be updated out from under them.