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Jensen: 'We've done our country a great disservice' by offshoring

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Re: Jensen: 'We've done our country a great disservice' by offshoring

#491
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That was Howard Lutnick. He's said a lot of, let's say "out-of-touch", things. He's not living in the real world, though. Motorola tried that not too long ago. Didn't go well. If you want to decimate American wages, you could do it, but if you at the same time deport people who were the most ready to work for a pittance, it's going to be hard to do this without riots. Then again, Stephen Miller wants those riots, so…

Howard Lutnick is "in charge," real or not it's his world we're living in. ;-)

Despite their belief to the contrary the executive branch is in charge of very little in this country. They are harassing and extorting in legally dubious and often outright illegal ways, but companies and institutions and individuals are getting wise to the fact there’s very little power these guys really have because the law is structured to prevent executive abuse of power. All you have to do is get your suit filed and get a stay, and sooner or later the governments case likely falls apart. It’s frictionful for everyone involved and will sooner or later cause serious damage to the economy, but increasing as the initial shock fades, everyone is realizing the president is fairly weak and his antics and his hand picked but of loonies undermine any power they might have. It’s not Howard Lutnicks world, and as time goes on it becomes less and less so as they squander the reputation of the presidency tilting at windmills.

Re: Jensen: 'We've done our country a great disservice' by offshoring

#492

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They extended their operations there because Biden lured them with insane subsidies. Biden, really? If you’re attempting to stop disinformation, please start with yourself. Michelin opened their US headquarters in Greenville in 1984 . BMW opened their plant in South Carolina in 1994 . How was (at the time) Senator Joe Biden of Delaware responsible for that in any way? Why would he care so much about South Carolina?…

I said "extended" not "opened". That's indeed intentional. Please don't use a strawman to avoid addressing the point I'm actually making. Michelin invested significantly in the site recently and BMW added a ton of EV manufacturing capacities, we are talking of a 1.7 billions dollars investment. All of this is linked to subsidies they got through the IRA on top of local South Carolina subsidies. They had to do these i…

Downvoted for a factual comment, I see the usual denial on the basis of party lines is still as strong as ever in the US. Here is a bunch of sources for the few who might be interested:

[1] Eager for Credits, BMW Breaks Ground on SC Battery Plant https://www.autoweek.com/news/industry-news/a44361301/bmw-ba...

[2] Inflation Reduction Act 'super aggressive,' Macron tells his US hosts (https://www.euractiv.com/news/inflation-reduction-act-super-...)

[3] Michelin's US investments won't affect Europe, CFO says https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/michel...

Re: Jensen: 'We've done our country a great disservice' by offshoring

#493

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s almost entirely a leverage problem. Insofar as we rely on the labor marketplace as the primary “prosperity” distribution mechanism for the majority of people the power balance between labor and capital will determine the average person’s level of prosperity. The following increase the leverage of labor: collective action, high competition between firms, near-zero (actual) unemployment rate, strong labor laws. Th…

pixelready says "A surge of empathetic humanism would likely do wonders for the mental health crisis as a bonus." Empathetic humanism isn't likely to do much for a schizophrenic or alcoholic.

If we were more invested in each other’s well being, especially if we had more capacity to put that care into action, wouldn’t that improve the support network surrounding those suffering from chronic mental health conditions?

Re: Jensen: 'We've done our country a great disservice' by offshoring

#494

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For return to happen you need to have a creative economy, not an extractive economy. Offshoring happened for the simple, dumb reason that it's cheaper and more profitable. For all the rarara about "America", shareholder patriotism extends exactly as far as quarterly returns. If that means selling out ordinary US workers - do it. Give me the bag. What offshoring revealed is that the US is not a culturally integrated c…

Offshoring happened because people dont want to buy goods that cost 3x as much just because they were made in the US. If a clothing company tries manufacturing domestically no one will buy their clothes unless theyre already an expensive brand.

Partially true, but it also happened because companies wanted to reduce cost and logistics are cheap. Sometimes this was a necessity to stay competitive. You either prohibit some trade with taxes or it is a race to the bottom to concentrate all production into countries with the lowest possible wages.

Ecological factors from logistics are missed technological development opportunity from not having local production are not factored in here as well.

Re: Jensen: 'We've done our country a great disservice' by offshoring

#495

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You have one of 3 choices here: 1. Low paid American workers glue iphones together in sweatshops 2. Low paid Chinese workers glue iphones together in sweatshops 3. Well paid American workers glue iphones together in sweatshops, and to make this possible we have a massive tariffs regime that makes consumer goods massively more expensive and massively increases the price of all manufactured goods. Pick your poison. The…

Chinese workers are not "low paid" relative to prices of goods in China though. A Chinese worker gluing an iPhone together can afford a decent middle class lifestyle, the Chinese version of the "American dream". What America really needs is massive deflation in the cost of everything, curbing income inequality (which is driving inflation) and moving to renewables (cost of oil/gas also drives inflation).

>> Chinese workers are not "low paid" relative to prices of goods in China though. A Chinese worker gluing an iPhone together can afford a decent middle class lifestyle, the Chinese version of the "American dream

I'm pretty sure this is what Apple wants you to believe, while Chinese company offers minimal wage for workers who assemble phones. One could never afford a decent lifestyle on a minimal wage.

Re: Jensen: 'We've done our country a great disservice' by offshoring

#497

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where was this? Because that's not true in the US, land of the personal injury attorney. My brother used to be a machine salesperson. He got a call from a law firm couple years after his company sold a machine asking about a particular one that was sold (not even by him) because their client lost a body part. Those payouts often end up in the millions.

A payout in the million doesn't seem in disagreement with the OPs assertion that the payouts make economic sense for these companies. I think the picture you paint of the US is rosier than the reality. Brings to mind the death of a 16 year old working in a poultry processing plant: https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/slaughterhouse-children... These companies know what they're doing.

It looks like a company was using uninformed and "scared" employee population to commit labor violations. Also using the same tactic that I alluded to in one of my other comments: Production workers are hired from a staffing agency and dispatched to the job site, that way the company HR doesn't know(and can't legally ask about work eligibility).

It looks like that plant in particular has serious issues. Someone else died after the 16 year old, bringing the number of deaths in recent years to 3.

This one in particular seems to know what it is doing: Googling "Mar-Jac Poultry" does not bring up any of the issues, nor are they listed in the Wiki page.

Re: Jensen: 'We've done our country a great disservice' by offshoring

#498

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Can't use Canada as OHIP et. al. don't cover much and the same employer tied insurance scheme as in the US exists and is necessary False. From what I know, only prescription drugs, dental, and vision are not covered. And since Americans frequently drive to Canada to buy prescription drugs, we can assume that's not as big a burden as in the US. But hospital stays, surgeries, lab testing, imaging, doctor visits, vacc…

Fair enough, I guess I got carried away given the private insurance has to cover drugs, which would otherwise be covered by the provincial insurance (like OHIP), if you have it. Private insurance also can cover a higher percentage, i.e. provincial plans do not always cover 100% of everything. Also, Health Care Spending accounts are in many cases part of private insurances and can be used to cover things that provinci…

And just for context … if medication is not covered and has to be paid out of pocket, the cost is generally under $100. Canadians don’t have $1000 medical costs

Re: Jensen: 'We've done our country a great disservice' by offshoring

#499
post #442

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Note that the "Labor vs Capital" distinction mostly means "workers vs retirees". The reason more money goes to capital these days is not necessarily that each retiree is getting more but that in an aging population, there's more retirees so it takes more resources diverted from workers to support this larger non working population. This problem can be solved with more babies 20 years ago or more immigration of worker…

There's been a lot written on Labor vs Capital, so I will just suggest you research the topic because you are not on target here.

Do you have a link? What I've seen in most discussions is obscuring of the fact that the majority of "capital" is directly or indirectly retirees or people saving for retirement. Those in the top 5% wealthiest often need to survive on that wealth for decades so it's not as if they have per year spending power that is that high. You too will be at your top percentile wealthiest of your life when you are nearing retirement.

Re: Jensen: 'We've done our country a great disservice' by offshoring

#500

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Note that the "Labor vs Capital" distinction mostly means "workers vs retirees". The reason more money goes to capital these days is not necessarily that each retiree is getting more but that in an aging population, there's more retirees so it takes more resources diverted from workers to support this larger non working population. This problem can be solved with more babies 20 years ago or more immigration of worker…

I undestand what you are saying but retirees are not what people mean when they talk about Capital. They are talking about executives, fund managers, billionaires, and so on. People who actually control much of our society. Yes many of the funds are managing the retirements of working people but that does not necessarily need to be the case, nor do those retirees have any active ownership of the companies those funds…

Right but the majority of people holding significant amounts of capital is retirees or people saving for retirement. There is a small minority of people wealthy for other reasons. It doesn't really make sense to strongly associate these people to "capital" since they are a small minority of capital holders.
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