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Germany's 49-euro ticket resulted in significant shift from road to rail

mcc-berlin.net

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Re: Germany's 49-euro ticket resulted in significant shift from road to rail

#491

Post by jajko »

SECProto wrote: post #428
jdietrich wrote: post #76

Providing these €49 tickets requires an annual subsidy of around €3bn, on top of already substantial subsidies for the rail industry. If we accept that it reduces carbon emissions by 6.7 million tonnes per year, then that works out to €447 per tonne. That really isn't good value - most carbon abatement methods cost well under $100 per tonne. I do recognise that modal shift towards rail may have other positive externa…

Funding road repairs, construction, and expansion from general tax revenues is similarly subsidizing a different mode of transit, and it's likely a much higher value than the 3b€ you mention (and likely more than overall railway sector subsidizing, tho I'm not familiar with Germany's budget). Also recognizing that other positive externalities exist, but pricing them at $0, seems silly.

German chancellor plans to put road repairs into 2% mandatory defense budget to meet NATO requirements, so not that much of a load to overall german budget.

Not trying to detract discussion, just finding it hilarious that when facing a potentially existential threat from russians who repeatedly claim they will wipe them out, they will do just about anything rather than making their military into something a bit better than an chronically underfunded joke its now.

Re: Germany's 49-euro ticket resulted in significant shift from road to rail

#492

Post by surfingdino »

petesergeant wrote: post #75

I really really would like to see Labour in the UK to use their sizeable majority + Parliamentary sovereignty to upgrade the UK’s infrastructure, including more train subsidies, but they seem very cautious and also terrified of raising taxes. Such a waste that the UK is one of the few places where Parliament could just ram shit through and yet building anything in the UK is so hampered by self-imposed red tape.

Terrified of raising taxes? I dunno, they are planning to raise taxes and introduce new ones. Cautious? Not in the least. Walking into one PR disaster after another.

There is no way to fix the UK railways, because it would require expensive engineering projects and purchase of private land/properties at low prices. People would vote them out as soon as they could. So no chance of that happening anytime soon.

Re: Germany's 49-euro ticket resulted in significant shift from road to rail

#493

Post by maigret »

nsokolsky wrote: post #325
postpawl wrote: post #245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Focusing on the cost-per-tonne for carbon reduction misses the broader value of railways. They're not just about reducing emission! They facilitate daily commutes, expand job opportunities, and help drive the economy. It’s a subsidy for businesses too.

How much of the increased rail use is helping increase GDP, though, rather than being purely leisurely trips with little long term value for the economy? More people going to hike in the forest on the weekend technically increases GDP but doesn't add much value to the economy overall.

For many it helps cover the gigantic rent hikes. Many workers need public transportation to commute because they can’t afford a car, which keep becoming more expensive because cheap cars don’t make profits. It was not rare before for public transport subs to cost upwards of 100 EUR

Re: Germany's 49-euro ticket resulted in significant shift from road to rail

#494

Post by [deleted] »

jdietrich wrote: post #76

Providing these €49 tickets requires an annual subsidy of around €3bn, on top of already substantial subsidies for the rail industry. If we accept that it reduces carbon emissions by 6.7 million tonnes per year, then that works out to €447 per tonne. That really isn't good value - most carbon abatement methods cost well under $100 per tonne. I do recognise that modal shift towards rail may have other positive externa…

[deleted]

Re: Germany's 49-euro ticket resulted in significant shift from road to rail

#495

Post by 0x008 »

emaro wrote: post #74
server_man3000 wrote: post #2

Didn’t this start as unlimited anywhere for 9 euros no strings attached? I LOVE the German transit system (although Denmark wins in cleanliness). However, Germany is a bit predatory with this new system. You can ONLY purchase this ticket as a subscription model. If you’re a tourist, you must cancel before the 10th of the month or you get auto rebilled. Additionally, there are so many apps that resell the ticket as so…

Surprised how positive you're writivg about the German public transport. The Deutsche Bahn doesn't have a good reputation in central Europe. I guess my frame of reference isn't average, given I live in Switzerland. Edit: the 49-euro ticket is great though!

Of course your frame of reference is biased because you have the best railway system out of ~30 European countries.

Germany’s system gets a lot of hate but it still in the top ~8 or so.

Re: Germany's 49-euro ticket resulted in significant shift from road to rail

#496

Post by diordiderot »

jajko wrote: post #491
SECProto wrote: post #428

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Funding road repairs, construction, and expansion from general tax revenues is similarly subsidizing a different mode of transit, and it's likely a much higher value than the 3b€ you mention (and likely more than overall railway sector subsidizing, tho I'm not familiar with Germany's budget). Also recognizing that other positive externalities exist, but pricing them at $0, seems silly.

German chancellor plans to put road repairs into 2% mandatory defense budget to meet NATO requirements, so not that much of a load to overall german budget. Not trying to detract discussion, just finding it hilarious that when facing a potentially existential threat from russians who repeatedly claim they will wipe them out, they will do just about anything rather than making their military into something a bit bette…

I believe the road budget was 132.8 billion between 2016 and 2030

Re: Germany's 49-euro ticket resulted in significant shift from road to rail

#497

Post by withinboredom »

jona-f wrote: post #478
nkmnz wrote: post #460

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you estimate the additional happiness brought by trains?

No, but we can look at the amount of misery, that is prevented by not using cars. Traffic jams, pollution, accidents, waste of resources,... The difference is so huge, we don't need to put a number on it. Public transport might be unpleasant for the individual, but is clearly very much better for everyone than using cars.

> Public transport might be unpleasant for the individual

Where is this true?

Re: Germany's 49-euro ticket resulted in significant shift from road to rail

#498

Post by lispm »

weinzierl wrote: post #298
lispm wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Everything seems to be stuck in paper based processes, only occasionally and very listlessly digitized. That's nonsense. Most public transport is digital by now. > The DB Navigator is so terrible It's not terrible. I managed to book all my train travels just fine with it, also using a business bahncard which gives me a 50% discount on all trains.

That's nonsense. Most public transport is digital by now. SNCF, SNCB and EuroStar let me manage my tickets digitally in my digital wallet. That is super convenient if you have more complicated itineraries because you have all the tickets handy in a single app, when you need them. With Deutsche Bahn it is either their app or a PDF to print. For local and inner city transport you usually don't need a ticket a all, just…

> With Deutsche Bahn it is either their app or a PDF to print.

They also have an extensive web-based ticket shop.

You don't need to print PDF tickets. One can also show a PDF ticket on an electronic device, without printing it. I used the DB ticket PDFs for several years, without printing it. Nowadays a load the long-distance train tickets onto the phone and have it in the DB app, I have also a PDF version via mail.

> For local and inner city transport you usually don't need a ticket a all, just swipe your card or phone at the beginning and end of your trip.

I have that here also in my city. The reality: most people have a subscription, that's the by far dominant model. Simpler and less tracking needed.

> It is paper tickets everywhere or a gazillion of different apps, because every city and network has their own.

Larger cities like Berlin, Hamburg, Munich, Cologne, Frankfurt, Stuttgart, Düsseldorf, ... are central for large traffic regions. For example the traffic region here in Hamburg serves roughly 3.7 million people.

> That is very much not my understanding of public transport being digital.

We now have a Germany-wide affordable subscription-based ticket for local&regional public transport. That's my understanding of public transport gone digital, nation-wide. The basics were operational after only a few months of planning.

Re: Germany's 49-euro ticket resulted in significant shift from road to rail

#499

Post by guenthert »

JackMorgan wrote: post #368
Aeolun wrote: post #345

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The UK is so expensive though. I thought I was looking at airplane fares.

I recently needed two tickets from NYC to LA, and was astonished to find air tickets for $80 and rail tickets for $2200. It's so unbelievably expensive (not counting that the flight was a few hours and the train was 56 hours). Very disappointing! How is it so expensive?!

Competition, I suppose. Still, that seems extreme. A few years (might have been eight) back, I traveled Amtrak's Zephyr from Chicago to California. The roomette for two (coach would have been cheaper) was some $450, about the same as 2nd class air fare for one then. But yes, the train isn't in a particular hurry, expected travel time is some 50h, but 1.5h in, it was already 20m late for no apparent reason. Most passengers were tourist, but I also talked to a fellow who was going to California to pick up a used car for his daughter.

I like the idea of long distance train traveling, as one can get off and back on later (check the fine print of your ticket though). Apparently, that's not customary however and earned me an interview by a TSA agent (a very polite fellow, odd as it may sound) who approached me (with a local Sheriff in tow) at a scheduled stop.

Re: Germany's 49-euro ticket resulted in significant shift from road to rail

#500

Post by moffkalast »

jenadine wrote: post #365
contravariant wrote: post #304

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Military spending is a bit of an odd one. It's basically expensive by design and ideally doesn't have any real effect. It's not far off from a proof-of-work system. Especially given how there are many cheaper options to get rid of an enemy, but those have been outlawed such that the only options remaining are costly in people, money and goods.

> there are many cheaper options to get rid of an enemy, but those have been outlawe I'm curious. What are these options?

Nukes, I think they mean nukes. Though "cheaper" is kind of debatable there, a fleet of SSBNs isn't cheap by any measure.
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