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Is the attack helicopter dead?

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Re: Is the attack helicopter dead?

#491
post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

... of people who still obstinately see gender identity as something to debate and criticize rather than recognize and accept. Would you say the same thing for national and racial identity? Which identities are allowed to pride yourself in? I hope you see the point behind that.

That's a good point. A male identifying himself as a woman makes about as much sense as a Polish identifying as a Korean.

Re: Is the attack helicopter dead?

#492

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's one thing to make a speculative assessment, or a prediction. But the use of the implied past tense in reference to a situation that has many variables and which in any case is far from decided is definitely quite pretentious.

I don’t think anybody serious questions the outcome of the Ukraine war — as evidenced by the international realignment caused by NATOs defeat, increases talk about Ukraine relinquishing ground, etc. What event do you believe could change the outcome at this point? And since Ukraine was defeated, we can discuss why: their inability to match artillery exchanges for most of the war.

Since you not only "know" the outcome, but it apparently it's ancient history for you already - why are you asking?

Re: Is the attack helicopter dead?

#493
post #448

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> He said if they can't see you, they can't shoot you. He should tell the F-117 pilot who got shot down with a few decades old anti-air system that, while keeping in mind that the F-117 flew higher and faster and quieter (relatively).

[flagged]

And still, it was supposed to not be vulnerable to enemy radar. And a multi decade old anti-air system, with the benefit of good intelligence and incredibly sloppy American operations, managed to shoot it down.

Why would anyone think a helicopter that would be flying much lower to the ground, would be invulnerable to e.g. man portable air defence systems?

Re: Is the attack helicopter dead?

#494
post #491

Earlier quoted context omitted.

... of people who still obstinately see gender identity as something to debate and criticize rather than recognize and accept. Would you say the same thing for national and racial identity? Which identities are allowed to pride yourself in? I hope you see the point behind that.

That's a good point. A male identifying himself as a woman makes about as much sense as a Polish identifying as a Korean.

Lets not have this degenerate into transphobia. My critique is directed towards gender identity in general and equally applies to cis people.

Re: Is the attack helicopter dead?

#495

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except Ukraine, because Ukraine invaded by nuclear country. Read the agreement, please.

Quote from the agreement, please. https://treaties.un.org/doc/Publication/UNTS/Volume%203007/P... Nothing in it says anything like "if broken, Ukraine can have a nuclear program".

Кожний Учасник цього Договору в порядку здійснення свого державного суверенітету має право вийти з Договору, якщо він вирішить, що пов'язані зі змістом цього Договору виняткові обставини поставили під загрозу найвищі інтереси його країни. Про такий вихід він повідомляє за три місяці всіх Учасників Договору і Раду Безпеки Організації Об'єднаних Націй. В такому повідомленні має міститися заява про виняткові обставини, які він розглядає як такі, що поставили під загрозу його найвищі інтереси.

Загроза силою чи її використання проти територіальної цілісності та недоторканності кордонів чи політичної незалежності України з боку будь-якої ядерної держави, так само, як і застосування економічного тиску, спрямованого на те, щоб підкорити своїм власним інтересам здійснення Україною прав, притаманних її суверенітету, розглядатимуться Україною як виняткові обставини, що поставили під загрозу її найвищі інтереси.

Цей Закон набирає чинності після надання Україні ядерними державами гарантій безпеки, оформлених шляхом підписання відповідного міжнародно-правового документа.

Machine translation (Gemma2):

Each Participant of this Treaty, in the exercise of its state sovereignty, has the right to withdraw from the Treaty if it determines that exceptional circumstances related to the content of this Treaty have threatened the supreme interests of its country. Such withdrawal shall be notified to all Participants of the Treaty and the Security Council of the United Nations three months in advance. The notification shall contain a statement on the exceptional circumstances which it considers to threaten its supreme interests.

Threat of force or its use against the territorial integrity and inviolability of borders or political independence of Ukraine by any nuclear state, as well as the application of economic pressure aimed at subjugating the exercise by Ukraine of rights inherent in its sovereignty to its own interests, shall be considered by Ukraine as exceptional circumstances that threaten its supreme interests.

This Act shall enter into force after Ukraine has received security assurances from nuclear states, formalized through the signing of a relevant international legal document.

Re: Is the attack helicopter dead?

#496

We’re still in the very early stage of drone development for warfare and Ukraine is using a lot of civilian gear. Now the armed forces of the world are plowing their funding into R&D I expect them to develop quickly. For example, aluminum air batteries are perfect for this use case but havent been developed because until now single use batteries haven’t seen any demand. Those will at least double or triple the range…

> We’re still in the very early stage of drone development for warfare and Ukraine is using a lot of civilian gear. Now the armed forces of the world are plowing their funding into R&D I expect them to develop quickly. I'm not sure that follows. Military drones like the Predator have been around for 30 years - at a cost of $30 million a drone. US military contractors are many things, but they're never cheap. And at t…

A DJI Mavic with a grenade has a flight time of only about 20 minutes, and can only operate at low attitude and close to the operator. The MQ-1 Predator can travel hundreds of km under satellite control and orbit for hours at medium altitude to provide persistent overwatch with advanced sensors. The cheap drones used in Ukraine are in no way a substitute for large, expensive drones like the Predator / Reaper. They address totally different missions and it's naive to compare them.

NATO has been flying large, expensive drones equipped with long-range radar at the edges of Ukrainian and Russian airspace. You don't hear much about it but this has been tremendously helpful for feeding Ukraine targeting data and warning about attacks. Can't do that with a cheap drone.

Re: Is the attack helicopter dead?

#497
post #457
post #409

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Specifically, the US considers anyone who is male and "of fighting age" not a civilian - and the "male" part is often optional. This does somehow still result in a lower ratio of dead civilians than when applying the same definitions to Russia or Israel. This shouldn't be seen as a way to excuse the behavior of the US but rather as a way to recontextualize the actions of the latter two, whether you support or oppose…

I don't think it helps anyone to separate what israel does from what USA does. Everything that israel does is authorized and aided by the USA. It'd all stop the very second the USA told them to stop. Related reading. https://chomsky.info/20210512/

> It'd all stop the very second the USA told them to stop.

What makes you think that? And which “the USA”, since Netanyahu has been in discussions with both Biden’s administration, and Trump.

Re: Is the attack helicopter dead?

#498
post #423

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah yes, the "source?" argument. The classic cry of people who want to disagree but have nothing productive to add to the discussion. I could point you to literally dozens of books on the Pax Americana and its decline (google is your friend) and America's de facto empire, as well as historical studies of the Pax Brittanica and the Pax Romana. Or Chinese histories that discuss the waves of peace and prosperity followin…

The problem with narrativized framings like "Pax Americana" is that they only work if you focus on internal peace. The "American" century began with World War 2 (arguably) and was defined by continuous proxy wars and assassinations. The US also didn't stand unchallenged at least until the decline of the Soviet Union (remember: the commies even won the "Space Race" before the goalposts moved to putting a man on the mo…

Yes, I agree with you that the "peace" mostly applies to those in the fold, and the only people who enjoyed a real, enduring peace for the whole time are the middle and upper classes of the very core of the empire. Personally, I would suggest that much of NATO (but not all of it at all times) has had relative peace during this time. The borders of empires have always had belligerents that need "putting down" from the perspective of the empire, which means small proxy wars. However, the "peace" usually refers to wars between nation-states.

Much of Europe's economic policy benefits from the huge subisdy that the US covers them with its guns - a drain of 6-10% of GDP may otherwise apply to NATO countries that find themselves up against Putin (and in a hypothetical world - maybe against each other). The Marshall Plan is also a relatively visible indication of how intertwined Europe's post-WWII growth was done with America's involvement, and when you look at US foreign aid ("imperial economic stimulus"), a lot of it today goes to poorer European nations. I agree with you that the EU (post-iron-curtain project) has been, as you suggest, a solely European initiative driven more by European solidarity than US guns. However, it exists in the world of the petrodollar (not any more) and with the quiet reassurance that many of the leading nations in the EU are NATO members. As we have seen with Ukraine, sometimes that NATO membership matters.

Empires are always a lot looser than we think - the Roman empire was a great example of this, where the nation-state of Rome (in the modern idea) didn't extend beyond the Alps until the Caracalla years, where Roman citizenship was truly extended to the provinces (note: after the end of the pax Romana). Egypt and the levant were basically completely autonomous, much like the EU is today.

Re: Is the attack helicopter dead?

#499
post #404
post #313

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Russia's use is more similar to the use you describe in the marines. Come in fast and low, pop up the nose and fire off the ordinance while popping flares then get out before the MANPADS can take a shot. The problem is that this limits them to very expensive portable artillery and the accuracy suffers a lot when you can't stick around. The big use for helicopters is defense. Russia showed the potential during last ye…

Both sides are doing this also with aircrafts, seen many videos. Point their noses up at predefined distance at given angle, launch battery of unguided missiles. You end up with some form of micro-grad, not very effective I'd say, hitting anything valuable requires a lot of luck. But in saturated airspace that's all they can mostly do, plus bigger planes deliver some gliding bombs.

It's not a novel approach. Russia baked it into their aiming systems decades ago and they supposedly train on the maneuver.

The software can detect when the correct pitch/direction are achieved so the barrage can be reasonably accurate. They don't have the luxury of slowly dialing in their aim, but have much better calculation systems and are firing a fraction of the distance (often over just 1-2 treelines).

As I said, I don't know that it's ideal. I think troops on the ground with a laser designator while the chopper lobs munitions up over the treeline from a farther, safer distance would be ideal.

Re: Is the attack helicopter dead?

#500

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Switchblade 600’s have the same warhead as the Javelin. With 8.5kg of explosives, it’s an entirely different category of weapon than the drones you’re thinking of which had closer to 200g of explosives.

There are drones with shaped charges.

You need mass on target to reliably kill heavily armored targets. A drone dropping grenades doesn’t have that payload capacity.
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