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Mikhail Gorbachev has died

reuters.com

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Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#491

Post by lapcat »

rs_rs_rs_rs_rs wrote: post #455
lapcat wrote: post #22

The United States didn't do enough to help Russia transition to democracy in the 1990s. There was no "Marshall Plan" after the Cold War like there was after World War II. This was a huge mistake, and we see the consequences now, with Russia having turned back toward totalitarianism and imperialism. Sadly, it seems that Gorbachev's efforts were mostly for naught. But it was courageous at the time to open up the Soviet…

Quoted post unavailable.

> What an insane idea

Please respect the HN guidelines. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

> next you're going to tell me the US is also to blame for the collapse?

No, it's actually the Ronald Reagan fans who believe the US is responsible for the collapse of the USSR.

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#492

Post by kranke155 »

DubiousPusher wrote: post #262
karaterobot wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your comment makes it sounds like you believe the U.S. had the power to decide whether or not Russia would turn into a kleptocracy or not. Maybe I'm misinterpreting you, but if I'm not, I'm skeptical. Marshall plan notwithstanding, I would give credit to the people and government of Japan for their post-war success: it could easily have gone another direction, and the U.S. couldn't have stopped that from happening. L…

> I would give credit to the people and government of Japan for their post-war success: it could easily have gone another direction, and the U.S. couldn't have stopped that from happening. I suggest you read more about the post war occupation of Japan. The U.S. put its thumb heavily on the scale forcing Japan to accept democratization throughout. Unusual for the U.S. this included pushing economic democracy by suppor…

The idea of a democratic Japan is itself interesting as for the most part it actually is a one party state. Outside of brief breaks, one party has held power in post war Japan.

So even with the US stomping the scale, it still didn’t make it some kind of European multi partisan parliamentary democracy.

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#493

Post by stefan_ »

bee_rider wrote: post #454
LtWorf wrote: post #266

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Check life expectancy of russians… it is not the same… it has gone worse.

I tried googling Search Term : Result Life expectancy Russia 1990 : 68.89 Life expectancy Russia 2019 : 73.08 For reference, in the US: Life expectancy US 1990 : 75.21 Life expectancy US 2019 : 78.79 I dunno nothing really stands out. It looks like Russians benefited a little bit more, but Americans were starting from a higher baseline so it makes sense that gains would be harder to come by. 2019 was selected rather…

You need to Google for males specifically, both for cultural and historic reasons.

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#494

Post by kshacker »

sph wrote: post #393
paulpauper wrote: post #72

Like Bill clinton, he helped define 90s geopolitics. It's remarkable how he faded away like he did. Nelson Mandela, Yassir Arafat , Ariel Sharon..that whole era.

They were too moderate for the modern age. Centrism has gone out of fashion.

It goes in cycles. We go to extremes and then swing back and sometimes in unison across continents. We will go back to some centrists although whether it takes 10 years or 50 is hard to say.

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#495

Post by calvinmorrison »

deepdriver wrote: post #405
calvinmorrison wrote: post #335

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Yes, I've started to become more and more bitter as the years have gone by. I feel this. It's not much fun being a end of Millennial. Maybe other generations felt this getting passed over but in general my friends who are older than me by a few years have fared a lot worse than those who are a few years younger than me. Some punk song summed it up Where we'll sell you dreams then make you work for free They handed…

Male life expectancy at birth in Russia fell by six years between 1991 and 1994. A drop that fast was practically unprecedented in developed economies. It’s not fun being a Millennial, as I know firsthand, but nothing comparable to 90s Russia in the aggregate. https://link.springer.com/article/10.1057/s41294-021-00169-w

For sure, I was just commenting that it seems like sometimes generations get skipped. Pre-fall russians reminisce about the good times, people who skipped it entirely might see the better post soviet times, someone who got smacked in the early money making part of their career... less so.

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#496

Post by mellowagain »

I remember in high school our teacher showing us enthusiastically a documentary about Gorbachev.

It was unbelievable how he managed to end the iron curtain and come closer to the west at a time at which it was thought to be impossible.

Trurely commendable. It is sad to see how Putin nullifies all of his effort and that he had to witness it now shortly before his death.

May he rest in peace.

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#497

Post by wawjgreen »

good riddance. he was an uneducated idiot, who is indirectly responsible for the millions that were killed in Afghanistan, in 1992.

In 1989, when he pulled the red army out of Afghanistan--he also cut all aid to the Democratic Republic of Afghanistan. the then-president of DRA went to Moscow to persuade Garbageoff to not to do so, predicting that the terrorist zealots would overrun his government leading to chaos in the region.

Garbageoff dismissed him, and did not even go to the airport to receive him. In the ensuing two years, the DRA fought the terrorists to the last bullet, until food became scarce and defenses crumbled. The terrorists entered Kabul and began fighting each other (they were self-labeling themselves "Mujahedeen" then).

In the carnage that followed, Kabul was destroyed, millions died and became refugees. I was an 11-yo boy who witnessed my neighbors getting torn to pieces by the rockets fired by the terrorists. I barely survived the rockets myself, and we fled and became refugees in Pakistan.

May Garbageoff rot in hell.

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#498

Post by fomine3 »

kranke155 wrote: post #492
DubiousPusher wrote: post #262

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I would give credit to the people and government of Japan for their post-war success: it could easily have gone another direction, and the U.S. couldn't have stopped that from happening. I suggest you read more about the post war occupation of Japan. The U.S. put its thumb heavily on the scale forcing Japan to accept democratization throughout. Unusual for the U.S. this included pushing economic democracy by suppor…

The idea of a democratic Japan is itself interesting as for the most part it actually is a one party state. Outside of brief breaks, one party has held power in post war Japan. So even with the US stomping the scale, it still didn’t make it some kind of European multi partisan parliamentary democracy.

I think US encouraged current only one party is strong situation as a result. LDP was encouraged by the US to against communists/socialists.

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#499

Post by Nanana909 »

hestefisk wrote: post #449
coldtea wrote: post #388

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The transition to a market economy went very well for most of the former Soviet Republics except Russia That might be what it writes in the link, it wasn't the case though, except if you mean after things stabilized 15 and 20 years later (and it's still bad in most places). Tons of conflict, forced migration, poverty, crime, sexual slavery, and so on...

Exactly. Countries like Poland and Hungary have huge social issues and struggle with corruption. A lot of political research points to the recent rise in fascist nationalism in these two countries as caused by being thrown from one political ideology to another (e.g. “communism” to ironfisted neoliberalism / Washington Consensus). It’s pretty evident none of them worked. If anything the country that was LEAST worse o…

> It’s pretty evident none of them worked.

How is that evident, though? It’s actually pretty clear that the quality of life has drastically improved in most of these countries. Of *course* you can always find some group who is suffering. But there is no way I would want to live in 1980s Poland, Estonia, etc vs 2020. For example:

https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SL.UEM.TOTL.ZS?location...

The continued existence of problems does not mean things have not worked. It’s important to look at whether those problems are improving over time.

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#500

Post by guelo »

ClumsyPilot wrote: post #480
somat wrote: post #380

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is true, the question is, what was the difference between the occupation of japan and germany and the occupation of afganistan, iraq or vietnam. The lesson of the latter is that all it takes is 20 years of low level combat until the occupying country gets tired and leaves. the lesson of the former is that defeated countries can become your greatest allies. As to what leads a nation to choose one path or the othe…

maybe the difference is a culture you understand vs a culture you don't. Many observers have said for years that middle east statebuildibg efforts were doomed - we left iraq worse off than we found it

Japanese culture was and is very foreign to Americans.
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