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Voat Is Shutting Down

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Re: Voat Is Shutting Down

#491

Post by IG_Semmelweiss »

rswail wrote: post #454
BrandoElFollito wrote: post #392

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The examples @piokoch made are very good. Seats in planes were designed for average people. It means that myself, as an average person, have the right to be relatively comfortable in that chair. If an obese person sits next to me, I have nothing against them on a human level - but the fact that they use my space. They are not comfortable either (certainly physically and probably psychologically) so if we accept obese…

Regarding the plane seats, the solution is that airlines provide larger seats for all passengers. The problem of obese passengers encroaching on fellow passengers "space" is because airlines have consistently reduced that "space" over the last 2 decades or more. However, either obesity is a disability, in which case, perhaps the ADA or equivalent could be used to force airlines to provide accomodation, or it is not a…

that's a great example

we currently ban steroids and most performance-enhancing substances in elite sports

Trans is the same thing, but on a genetic level. It alters the state of competition to give advantage to the new entrant. It follows that it would be banned on the same grounds under current rules.

Either we accept all modification in sports, or we dont

Re: Voat Is Shutting Down

#492

Post by eplanit »

esperent wrote: post #328
piokoch wrote: post #309

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, but there is some middle ground between antisemitism and following what mainstream loves the a given point of time. And right now if someone dares to stick outside mainstream views this is considered hate speech, anti-XXX, etc. Can we discuss if overweight people should pay more for sits in a plane? Can we discuss if a trans male who identifies herself to be a woman should be allowed to take part in female sport…

> Can we discuss if overweight people should pay more for sits in a plane? Can we discuss if a trans male who identifies herself to be a woman should be allowed to take part in female sport competition (box, running)? I am afraid we no longer can discuss such "uncomfortable" topics You can debate those things on reddit without being censored on a lots of subreddits. However, the reason these are such contentious topi…

So, speech about fat or trans people must be limited to "caring about their rights"? If you can't say something nice then you're not allowed to say anything at all?

Re: Voat Is Shutting Down

#493

Post by bitxbitxbitcoin »

rswail wrote: post #454
BrandoElFollito wrote: post #392

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The examples @piokoch made are very good. Seats in planes were designed for average people. It means that myself, as an average person, have the right to be relatively comfortable in that chair. If an obese person sits next to me, I have nothing against them on a human level - but the fact that they use my space. They are not comfortable either (certainly physically and probably psychologically) so if we accept obese…

Regarding the plane seats, the solution is that airlines provide larger seats for all passengers. The problem of obese passengers encroaching on fellow passengers "space" is because airlines have consistently reduced that "space" over the last 2 decades or more. However, either obesity is a disability, in which case, perhaps the ADA or equivalent could be used to force airlines to provide accomodation, or it is not a…

Having everyone submit their genome for examination is absolutely where professional sports is ending up.

Re: Voat Is Shutting Down

#494

Post by pjc50 »

henriquez wrote: post #436
Eyas wrote: post #430

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Trans folks in the LGBT movement were an inextricable part of the movement since day 1. Partly because distinctions at the time between gay men who did drag and trans women did not exist, but also partly because the overarching theme of the movement (and the hate it received) has been the sense of 'disgust' by mainstream society of its subversion of heteronormative values. Many trans men and women lead the movement v…

Okay well I’m a gay man and I like men with penises. Only recently does that make me a bigot. I think a vocal minority of the trans “movement” is really doing a lot of damage to themselves by trying to coerce sexual consent on a cultural level. Maybe people should be more comfortable with living and letting live. To me that is how I remember the LGBT movement pre-Twitter days.

> trying to coerce sexual consent on a cultural level.

Nobody is doing this, that's where the allegations of bad faith come from.

Re: Voat Is Shutting Down

#495

Post by tootie »

jml7c5 wrote: post #265
tootie wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problems on reddit started the second it became commercially successful. First came paid promotions, then came the propaganda. Too much of the "free speech" was totally insincere attempts at manipulation.

What time frame are you talking here?

I don't really recall the whole timeline. But it wasn't long after the Digg debacle that reddit started getting gamed by content farms leveraging popular accounts. Then the process got more and more refined and professional as it also became more lucrative.

Re: Voat Is Shutting Down

#496

Post by TheRealDunkirk »

Someone wrote: post #463
rm_-rf_slash wrote: post #406

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your last sentence contains the kernel of a reality that much of the internet would rather we don’t notice: that we don’t have to care about most of the stupid shit we see on our screens every day. We don’t need to engage in flame wars or virtue signaling or any of these asinine debates. People got along with their lives just fine for thousands of years without feeling compelled to debate a stranger from hundreds of…

“People got along with their lives just fine for thousands of years without feeling compelled to debate a stranger from hundreds of miles away for 10 minutes about theoreticals that scarcely affect their daily lives.” That’s debatable ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missionary ). They even went out and tried to kill strangers hundreds of miles away ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_war ) Many of those were in…

You just made the GP's point, perfectly.

Re: Voat Is Shutting Down

#497

Post by lordCarbonFiber »

themgt wrote: post #472
pjc50 wrote: post #333

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Can we discuss if a trans male who identifies herself to be a woman should be allowed to take part in female sport competition (box, running)? Trans woman ; trans men would be competing in the male competitions, and seem to be invisible in the whole trans debate anyway. The problem with this is that it's almost entirely based on prejudice and people saying things that turn out not to be true, along with vague biolo…

The problem with this is that it's almost entirely based on prejudice and people saying things that turn out not to be true ... Caster Semenya [has] high natural testosterone Caster Semenya has XY chromosomes and internal testes. Semenya has "high natural testosterone" as a result of having male anatomy and hormones. The specific regulation Semenya has been fighting is explicitly "limited to athletes with ’46 XY DSD’…

Ignoring why the WSA chose 5nmol/L over something closer to the average cis woman's upper quartile (which is closer to 2 [45ng/dL as seen in [0]], not .6 as you're implying with the 7.5x figure), Im not sure what their reasoning is on that without more research.

Trans women don't tend to have testosterone levels that high anyway, and if they did their doctors would be worried about it. Obviously not a comprehensive study but, have the testosterone levels of a trans woman [0] (she's relatively normal, other than the fact she insists on debating strangers on the internet). That's ~.4 nmol/L (why sports and medicine use two different measures is also very confusing, unit conversion here [1]. Given the advantages testosterone gives in sports [3] I'd wager most women competing aren't hovering around the minimum levels (which is where most trans women are going to be by virtue of how anti-androgens work). Instead of unscientific blog spam, how about a study published by the National Collegiate Athletic Association [4].

Basically as the knowledge of the underlying science grows the idea of simple binary for fair sporting competition makes increasingly less sense, I wouldn't be surprised if elite institutions started to drift more toward "hormonal weight classes" (and so thinks these scientists [4])

[0] https://imgur.com/a/z9DR2cD

[1] http://unitslab.com/node/136

[2] https://sci-hub.tw/10.1210/er.2018-00020

[3] “[t]he available, albeit incomplete, evidence makes it highly likely that the sex difference in circulating testosterone of adults explains most, if not all, the sex differences in sporting performance.” https://sci-hub.tw/10.1210/er.2018-00020

[4]“[a]ny athletic advantages a transgender girl or woman arguably may have as a result of her prior testosterone levels dissipate after about one year of estrogen therapy.” https://www.ncaa.org/sites/default/files/NCLR_TransStudentAt...

Re: Voat Is Shutting Down

#498

Post by lawnchair_larry »

lordCarbonFiber wrote: post #483
MisterTea wrote: post #417

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ou did not bring them up in good faith, for example, you just used obese and trans people to make a point. You are one of the people the gp is mentioning. Those two are excellent points. There are a lot of people who are uncomfortable with those topics but are open to discussing them. Then people like you come out of the woodwork and accuse them of some nonsensical uptight bullshit and crap on their legitimate ques…

We live in a world where google exists, hell where scihub exists. It's extremely suspicious to show up in a forum "asking questions" when these resources exist. Getting told to "fuck off" in this context is basically being told to RTFM. You can look in my comment history to find just how easy it was to compile some sources to discredit the idea that trans women in sports is some unknown taboo. If we spent just a frac…

Nobody said it’s an unknown taboo. The issue is that they have an incredible biological advantage. We should absolutely not focus on making social spaces “safer” (a misnomer, because regular adult conversations simply do not jeopardize safety), we should focus more on making people anti-fragile.

Re: Voat Is Shutting Down

#499

Post by [deleted] »

eska wrote: post #440
nicoburns wrote: post #422

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> trans men would be competing in the male competitions, and seem to be invisible in the whole trans debate anyway. Something that was pointed out to me recently that I thought was quite insightful. The greater societal acceptance of trans men compared to trans women seems to parallel the greater societal acceptance of cis women presenting in a masculine way compared to cis men presenting in a feminine way. Which lea…

What? How about nobody cares about trans men in male competitions because they are at the bottom, so have no visibility because they don't make it to the big competitions where real money and fame is achieved?

[deleted]

Re: Voat Is Shutting Down

#500

Post by jessewmc »

renewiltord wrote: post #279
AnthonyMouse wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Free speech platforms usually end up being extremist platforms. ...when the popular platforms stop being free speech platforms. Reddit, in its earlier days, was never dominated by the Voat contingent. They were there, but they were far less extreme there than they were on Voat. And then whenever they would post rank inaccuracies, there were clearer-minded people to point out why they were wrong, in the same place w…

> So the answer has to be to stop the witch hunts in the places where everybody else already is. Got to be honest, bro, I don't really care to sacrifice for "the good of society" or whatever. If you make a website where some dude is going to post anti-Semitic shit everywhere and someone else is going to have to politely explain that Jewish lizard people are not conspiring to elect a Black woman as President then sure…

Of course no one individually wants to sacrifice for society. The point is that if everyone is willing to do it, everyone is better off. By making some sort of collective incentive to have a wider distribution of incomes in neighbourhoods and schools, everyone is better off.

The same is true if we want to moderate extremism. If you kick extremists off the mainstream platform, they become more extreme. It's a hard problem.

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