I Violated a Code of Conduct • Hacker News Board

Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#491

Post by waterhouse » Thu, Oct 29, 2020, 9:29 AM UTC

dragonwriter wrote: post #457

donw wrote: post #323

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Self esteem devoid of any underlying achievement is hollow. In the end you're basically manufacturing narcissists, with a fragile falsely inflated self image covering a chasm of insecurity. Precisely. At the same time, I think that social connections divorced from physical reality -- as is on the Internet -- compound this to the nth degree. I can pretend to be an amazing dancer or boxer or chef on Facebook, but it'…

> The first rule of social dancing is that you want to welcome new dancers. The second rule (which, really, overlaps a lot with the first rule) of social dancing is that you don’t, ever, offer unsolicited coaching in the context of social dance. And part of that is because almost no one is in the mental place in that context to take it well.

I don't have much experience, but two different dancing groups I attended started each night with an hour-long "lesson" with a teacher, after which the rest of the night was free dancing (well, one group charged an admission fee, but I mean no one was giving directions). Looking at a couple of other groups' websites, it seems like this is common.

I suppose you could use "whether someone attended the 'lesson' period" as a sign of whether they will take coaching well.

Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#492

Post by pron » Thu, Oct 29, 2020, 9:33 AM UTC

ALittleLight wrote: post #325

newscracker wrote: post #184

After reading the entire post, I feel really bad for him, and I hope he gets the time off and the support necessary to recover from this incident. I also feel quite angry with how he has been treated. So please let me vent it out here as politely as I’m able to. I can imagine something like this or worse happening on social media groups, but an ostentatious “committee” that listens only to one side and never gives th…

Rebuilt? Why? Do you read the code of conduct when you attend a conference? Personally, I haven't even read the code of conduct for my job, and certainly wouldn't read one if I was speaking at or attending a conference. The CoCs are completely unnecessary and, as shown in this example, arbitrarily enforced. In the blog post I read that their CoC prohibits threats and assaults. Consider how silly that is. If someone's…

Have you read all the laws in your country? Are you aware that there are probably thousands of examples where they've been arbitrarily enforced and put innocent people in prison (or even executed them)? Many of them are just a matter of common sense and yet there's an entire apparatus around them. Does that mean they're silly and useless?

I've never organised a conference, but people who have told me that there's a level of craziness that most attendees or speakers aren't exposed to. I don't know if a code of conduct makes their job easier or not, but your glib dismissal fails to take into account that conference organisers don't enjoy judicial immunity and enforcement of anything -- be it written in a code of conduct or just common sense -- can make them liable for damages. One way to protect yourself is with a system of due process, and some lawyers think that a written code is helpful in establishing due process while others disagree.

Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#493

Post by LeonB » Thu, Oct 29, 2020, 9:35 AM UTC

LeonB wrote: post #359

JamesBarney wrote: post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the U.S. accidentally bombs a civilian caravan when trying to bomb terrorists isn't the critique "we should stop trying to bomb terrorists" equally as valid as "we should be more careful where we drop bombs". The article explicitly argues CoC's should be done better, but it's also a story of collateral damage. The author might believe these issues are infrequent and a non-issue but not all the readers share this b…

I think extending the metaphor to bombs is a bit much. It's more like if the U.S. accidentally bombs a civilian caravan and the response is "we should stop trying to assassinate terrorists" in other countries. I wouldn't call that an "invalid" opinion or critique, and again I would think it's an expected reaction. But it would be overly broad, based solely on that incident. Of course we don't exist in a vacuum, so I'…

Hang about. The metaphor is more like this:

> It's more like if the U.S. accidentally bombs a civilian caravan and the response is "this shows why we should not have foreign policy.”

Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#494

Post by dane-pgp » Thu, Oct 29, 2020, 9:35 AM UTC

luord wrote: post #485

It's interesting that he is so vehemently in favor of "cancel culture" given two things: The reason many people oppose it is because it often leads to completely innocent people being harassed and/or ostracized (or worse). So, in that way, his situation makes a very fitting example of many of the things wrong with cancel culture and highlights a few of the reasons why detractors oppose this kind of attack. Secondly,…

I was surprised too that he didn't see the danger of "cancel culture" after his experience. The ominous idea of "facing consequences" sounds exactly like the implication of a Mafioso saying "Nice business you have there, it would be a shame if something were to happen to it."

Another example is this classic joke about the Soviet Union:

Q: What is the difference between the Constitutions of the US and USSR? Both of them guarantee freedom of speech.

A: Yes, but the Constitution of the USA also guarantees freedom after the speech.

Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#495

Post by julianmarq » Thu, Oct 29, 2020, 9:37 AM UTC

tptacek wrote: post #251

barumi wrote: post #244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is not a take. It's an objective description of what a CoC is and how it is designed to be used. There is no way around it. At all. I'm surprised you feel the need to turn a blind eye to this fact. Let's put it differently: without it's oppressive and persecutory function, what's the point of a CoC? To make it even simpler to you, what do you expect if someone in a community is deemed in direct violation of a CoC?

Hm, and me I thought most of them were just a way to assure newcomers that your project wasn't going to allow racist trolling on the mailing list. My take is that the problem with this code of conduct was that it was dumb. I want to recommend to you the degree to which it is easy and relaxing to just acknowledge that and move on, maybe with a note or two about what not to do in any code of conduct you write. It seems…

> [CoC are] a way to assure newcomers that your project wasn't going to allow racist trolling on the mailing list.

The implication being that every project without an established code of conduct is awash with racism?

Exhausting vigilance about conspiracies indeed.

Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#496

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Oct 29, 2020, 9:38 AM UTC

tomnipotent wrote: post #481

freeone3000 wrote: post #262

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On what grounds?

There are legal expectations for how companies can terminate employees, I think it's only fair that professional organizations organizing professional events also be held legally accountable for the impacts they have on individuals. More often than not, these responsibilities emerge after onerous legal discourse, legal judgement, and promise of punishment.

[deleted]

Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#497

Post by waterhouse » Thu, Oct 29, 2020, 9:38 AM UTC

necovek wrote: post #437

donw wrote: post #323

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Self esteem devoid of any underlying achievement is hollow. In the end you're basically manufacturing narcissists, with a fragile falsely inflated self image covering a chasm of insecurity. Precisely. At the same time, I think that social connections divorced from physical reality -- as is on the Internet -- compound this to the nth degree. I can pretend to be an amazing dancer or boxer or chef on Facebook, but it'…

Dancing for leisure is practiced by anyone, and people can be good dancers because "good" is defined differently for something so universally practiced. Like, is your mom or grandma a good cook? How many Michelin stars would her kitchen get? :) Not saying this person wasn't a prick, just that dancing is hard to get an idea of how good you are at without already accepting that you suck at it while being repeatedly tol…

> if you are simply willing to let go on a dance floor as a male, you were likely to be termed a good dancer in my youth

Can confirm. My strategy for single dancing was quite literally "do arbitrarily chosen motions in rhythm to the music with a straight face", and even when I chose motions I thought were silly (like pantomiming scooping ingredients into a bowl and stirring them), I never got the impression that anyone thought it was silly, and I started getting lots of people telling me that I'm a good or even a really good dancer.

My experience is that, if you move a lot, do it with an approximately correct rhythm, and do it with energy and enthusiasm, and you don't actually bump into people or fall over, then people will be pleased. It is possible that I've developed actual skill, but I think the above is most of it.

It does not translate into being good at dancing with a partner, except by implying basic proficiency with movement and rhythm.

Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#498

Post by sgift » Thu, Oct 29, 2020, 9:39 AM UTC

svrb wrote: post #189

obviouslynotme wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is because he is a real person using his real name. He might have believed in this nonsense and is only now seeing CoCs for what they really are. He might not be comfortable publicly rebelling against the new orthodoxy. These tribunals are no joke.

Or we can take the author at his word and understand that he is part of the problem. He's still in favor of CoCs after all this, and the only example we have of a CoC he isn't in favor of is one which got applied to him... in the same way CoCs are always applied.

Or we can take what the author writes the way he writes it: CoCs are not bad, not following your own process for enforcement of CoC (which also has problems in this specific case) is bad. The answer to "this type of enforcement is bad" is not "no enforcement".

Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#499

Post by disgruntledphd2 » Thu, Oct 29, 2020, 9:40 AM UTC

radmuzom wrote: post #175

chmod775 wrote: post #95

It was clearly a mistake for him to even play along, especially if he was emotionally exhausted already. The best you can do when people are being stupid like this is ignore them. They hold no power over you unless you let them. This whole CoC thing is sadly fraught with virtue signaling psycho-sadists who enjoy playing tribunal. The people who actually cared about fostering inclusive human communities got bullied ou…

Agree. I wonder what would the reaction be if Joel Grus was a woman.

I would hope that it would be similar. Let's note that the author asked Joel to use his slides, talked to him about the talk beforehand.

I can only dream of giving a good enough talk that people want to give a talk explaining why I'm wrong, but if that did happen I'd really appreciate the concern that Jeremy (i think he's the OP) showed here.

Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#500

Post by nix23 » Thu, Oct 29, 2020, 9:41 AM UTC

Imagine that your civil rules are so f*ckt that you think you need a CoC and then just listen to one side, Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union had such CoC'ses too.