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Why is Apple acting like an asshole?

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Re: Why is Apple acting like an asshole?

#491

Post by zepto »

TheKarateKid wrote: post #419
amiantos wrote: post #395

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the rub is that a lot of the apps built at these massive companies use unnecessary third party frameworks and build their apps in janky ways, so while the content of their app doesn't appear to need anything special, it's actually standing on top of a house of cards built out of 3rd party APIs that are doing janky things that break between OS updates. If they just built their apps fully natively, using UIKit…

Yes, let’s have the company pay for an entire development team to learn Obj-C or have additional hires, just so their apps can do on Apple’s platform what it can do everywhere else just fine. /s

Every single person I know who has switched from Android to iOS in the past year or two has said that Apps work better on iOS.

Apps simply don’t work ‘just fine’ everywhere else.

Re: Why is Apple acting like an asshole?

#492

Post by tekknik »

romanoderoma wrote: post #480
tekknik wrote: post #440

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But is it Apple's call? Yes, just like you’re free to never visit an annoying website asking to spam notifications you’re free to take away Apple’s decision making power you grant them by simply not buying an iphone.

> you’re free to take away Apple’s decision making power you grant them by simply not buying an iphone. That's a very common argument But it doesn't get any less stupid with time. I never owned an iPhone. Because I am an adult homo sapiens that can take decisions for himself. But you should know that if a standard exists, and the standard has been approved by a consortium, a consortium where Apple is a very important…

Developers are not jumping through hoops to support their platform. I’m a full stack dev, I understand what it takes to support safari and a majority of the time is actually Chrome being fast and loose with the standard, not Apple. Is it a partial implementation, sure. But the features lacking don’t stop meaningful work at all. Just like hearing my statement is old, so is yours.

Re: Why is Apple acting like an asshole?

#493

Post by selykg »

zepto wrote: post #490
saagarjha wrote: post #430

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The fact that Apple’s own software is not all updated just proves this point, since they obviously did know when it was going to be released. I'm not sure I understand?

If it was such a big deal for all the software to be updated on day 1, Apple could have made sure their own software was updated. It just isn’t a big deal.

I love that you aren't in this field at all, but seem to know better than others who are. This is like that person that starts a new job, walks in on day one, and then proclaims that the place is doing everything wrong without knowing anything about how the business operates.

Re: Why is Apple acting like an asshole?

#494

Post by pvorb »

Splendor wrote: post #416
pvorb wrote: post #405

Do developers get a pre-release of iOS to test on or how can you release a new version of your app before the targeted OS is released? Also, why do you need to release a new version at all? I'd expect the platform to stay largely compatible. (Obviously, I haven't developed anything for the Apple ecosystem, so these are genuine questions.)

> Do developers get a pre-release of iOS to test on? Yes, but those pre-release OS versions are changed and updated by Apple as the process goes along. So once Apple declares the final version (AKA Gold Master), then everyone needs to regression test their apps against this final version that will be installed on user devices. The process of submitting the app update to the store must be done with a new toolchain as…

Thank you for the patient explanation.

Re: Why is Apple acting like an asshole?

#495

Post by scarface74 »

spiderfarmer wrote: post #486
scarface74 wrote: post #483

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I never said the web sucks. The thesis was that Apple was holding PWAs back and given a choice, app developers wouldn’t create native iOS apps and just create web apps. If Apple’s lack of support for the necessary APIs was the deciding factor, the same developers who make native iOS apps wouldn’t go through the trouble of making native Android apps - yet they do.

No the thesis is that Apple is holding the web a a whole back. I’m not the one that says Apps like Youtube are better off or even good enough as a PWA. I’m arguing that if Apple enabled the notification API, a lot of websites and apps can save money by not replicating simple functionality in a native app. Your arguments don’t refute that at all.

If the lack of push notifications on iOS were the only thing forcing developers to create iOS apps, those same developers wouldn’t overwhelmingly be creating Android apps.

Where are all the developers who are being forced to create iOS apps but are “saving money” by not creating Android apps because PWA support is so good?

Re: Why is Apple acting like an asshole?

#496

Post by kaishin »

pojntfx wrote: post #3

Honestly, this is why we need the Web. But Apple even blocks that since they don’t allow any browser engine apart from Safari, meaning that there is no - Add to homescreen dialog - Background sync - Proper push notifications - Proper WASM support (a lot of features are missing) Honestly, at this point, the government should step in, like they did at the end of the last century with Microsoft. Walled gardens hurt inno…

Oh please point me to the latest Web innovations that do something else other than track me or pester me with junk I don't need.

Re: Why is Apple acting like an asshole?

#497

Post by tekknik »

romanoderoma wrote: post #479
tekknik wrote: post #441

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So then write for all browsers, support what you can for each, and don’t promote Chrome anymore? If you continue to promote a one size fits all browser and the market moves that way then we’ll shortly be having this same discussion about Google. If you were writing websites in the 90s you should know this.

> So then write for all browsers, support what you can for each, and don’t promote Chrome anymore? WOW That escalated quickly I never promoted Chrome, in fact I'm an old time Firefox users and in the 90s I owned a Netscape 3 gold license. I don't write fronted software anymore, but writing for every browser means adhering to the standard Apple has steered away more than any other vendor lately So...

> I don't write fronted software anymore, but writing for every browser means adhering to the standard.

Yes, which you’ll find if you do Safari adheres to quite well. Finding examples where it doesn’t is easy, just like on chrome. Which is why we have media queries and poly fills because it’s simply impossible to have a unified platform without one entity owning it. If you found out Chrome doesn’t render the same on linux as it doesn’t on windows, would you call this not adhering to the standard?

Re: Why is Apple acting like an asshole?

#498

Post by spiderfarmer »

scarface74 wrote: post #495
spiderfarmer wrote: post #486

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No the thesis is that Apple is holding the web a a whole back. I’m not the one that says Apps like Youtube are better off or even good enough as a PWA. I’m arguing that if Apple enabled the notification API, a lot of websites and apps can save money by not replicating simple functionality in a native app. Your arguments don’t refute that at all.

If the lack of push notifications on iOS were the only thing forcing developers to create iOS apps, those same developers wouldn’t overwhelmingly be creating Android apps. Where are all the developers who are being forced to create iOS apps but are “saving money” by not creating Android apps because PWA support is so good?

Most skip making apps all together because they rely on email notifications.

Re: Why is Apple acting like an asshole?

#499

Post by chinesempire »

tekknik wrote: post #497
romanoderoma wrote: post #479

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So then write for all browsers, support what you can for each, and don’t promote Chrome anymore? WOW That escalated quickly I never promoted Chrome, in fact I'm an old time Firefox users and in the 90s I owned a Netscape 3 gold license. I don't write fronted software anymore, but writing for every browser means adhering to the standard Apple has steered away more than any other vendor lately So...

> I don't write fronted software anymore, but writing for every browser means adhering to the standard. Yes, which you’ll find if you do Safari adheres to quite well. Finding examples where it doesn’t is easy, just like on chrome. Which is why we have media queries and poly fills because it’s simply impossible to have a unified platform without one entity owning it. If you found out Chrome doesn’t render the same on…

> Yes, which you’ll find if you do Safari adheres to quite well

They don' t

Apple refused to implement 16 web API in Safari

> Which is why we have media queries and poly fills because it’s simply impossible to have a unified platform

And that' s why big players like Apple hat control a closed ecosystem shouldn't be allowed to be assholes

At least on Android I can install other browsers and other browser engines

Do you see the difference?

> Chrome doesn’t render the same on linux as it doesn’t on windows

that' s not true

Windows and Linux that have simply different font rendering engines and different native widgets

That's all

> would you call this not adhering to the standard?

absolutely NOT!

In no part of the standard rendering is formalized

It wouldn't make sense

The way things are rendered is standardized, not the way they should look

https://www.w3.org/TR/2014/REC-html5-20141028/rendering.html

> HTML is intended to apply to multiple media (it is a media-independent language). User agent implementors are encouraged to adapt the suggestions in this section to their target media.

Re: Why is Apple acting like an asshole?

#500

Post by romanoderoma »

tekknik wrote: post #492
romanoderoma wrote: post #480

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> you’re free to take away Apple’s decision making power you grant them by simply not buying an iphone. That's a very common argument But it doesn't get any less stupid with time. I never owned an iPhone. Because I am an adult homo sapiens that can take decisions for himself. But you should know that if a standard exists, and the standard has been approved by a consortium, a consortium where Apple is a very important…

Developers are not jumping through hoops to support their platform. I’m a full stack dev, I understand what it takes to support safari and a majority of the time is actually Chrome being fast and loose with the standard, not Apple. Is it a partial implementation, sure. But the features lacking don’t stop meaningful work at all. Just like hearing my statement is old, so is yours.

> Developers are not jumping through hoops to support their platform

They are

> I’m a full stack dev, I understand what it takes to support safari and a majority of the time is actually Chrome being fast and loose with the standard

I am as well, I understand a closed platform when I see one.

> But the features lacking don’t stop meaningful work at all.

If only it was true...

It' s not lacking, it has been removed on purpose.

The web engine Safari is built from already supports those features.

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